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Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda}



That's a good question.  It seems like {roda} usually means everything (not restricted to physical things), but if I say {ro lo gerku cu cliva} it does not mean "all of the dogs in the universe leave".  It means "all of the dogs that are related to this discussion" (like maybe we're looking at a pack of 3 dogs).

Trying to come up with a scenario, I don't see anything wrong with something like:

...
bob: xu do nelci ro lo xamselsku be mi
rob:  mi tirna roda .iku'i mi nelci so'uda .u'inairu'e

In this scenario it seems like context is helping to limit {roda} to {ro lo xamselsku}, but I don't know.  Some might read that as "I hear everything but only like some things" but I think plenty of people would understand {roda} and {so'uda} as referring to the xamselsku.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:58 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
I was aware that {roda} isn't restricted to people or physical objects, but it's difficult to express that in English.

It's interesting that you refer to a "universe of discourse".  Not having any strong background in linguistics, philosophy, or logic, I don't know what precisely this means, but it seems like it's what I'm thinking about.

In English, when I say "Everyone's going home.", I am first of all probably exaggerating but second of all I really mean "Everyone [of the set who isn't me in the relevant location] is going home".  It's like I said "roda [poi co'e] cu cliva".

Does the universe of discourse always consist of all things that can possibly be talked about?

Also, am I correct in my memory of {da}'s scope?


On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Thursday 17 February 2011 13:42:46 .arpis. wrote:
> I'm wondering about the usage of {roda} in lojban.  In English, at least,
> "everything" and "everyone" carry an implicit restriction; AFAIK lojban
> does not do that, which makes {roda} without explicit restriction either
> factually incorrect in most cases or useful only in very precise
> conversation.

Neither "da" nor "ma" is restricted to persons or things, as "who" and "what"
are in English. A word can be implicitly restricted, as in "le cukta be bau
lo fraso": "lo fraso" here refers to the French language, not a French
person, which it might refer to elsewhere.

> This has gotten me thinking more about the semantics of {da}. I seem to
> recall that {da}'s binding has bridi scope.
> If I say {da prenu} without a prenex, am I commenting on the existence of a
> man {si} person (to'i damn sexist language creeping in when I don't think
> toi)?
> If I say {roda prenu} without a prenex, am I saying that all "things" in
> the world are people?
> Can I use {ko'a} without having explicitly assigned it e.g. {ko'a noi pendo
> mi co'e} instead of {ko'a goi lo pendo be mi co'e}?

"da prenu" means "there is a person". "roda prenu" means "everything/everyone
is a person", where "roda" refers to everything in the universe of discourse,
so unless the universe of discourse consists entirely of persons, it's false.

"ko'a" can be used without being assigned; it's up to the listener to figure
it out. I did this in le cmalu bloti; "ko'a" refers to the whole crew, or to
the crew minus the boy, and "ko'e" refers to the boy.

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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