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Re: [lojban-beginners] Digest for lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com - 25 Messages in 3 Topics
Perhaps does it mean "Luks (only) can bring about the-event of me eating" ?
Don't forget that CAhAs convey sens for capabilities for event to
being true. Not capacity of someone to do it. But maybe capacity of
something to make it possible, moreover without any sense of
agentivity or kind of causality conveyed ?
That is the whole point.
Of course a person as an innate condition of something being possible,
it get meaningless again ...
Let's try :
{mi citka .ica'abo mi ca'o jmive} = {go mi ka'e citka gi mi jmive} =
{ca'ogi mi ca'a citka gi mi jmive} and so forth ? interesting.
2011/4/20, lojban-beginners+noreply@googlegroups.com
<lojban-beginners+noreply@googlegroups.com>:
> =============================================================================
> Today's Topic Summary
> =============================================================================
>
> Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/topics
>
> - "th" sounds in Lojban [8 Updates]
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/c154628babc7ed1e
> - vlastezba: First beta version released! [15 Updates]
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/a3ce6bfc08267540
> - Why is CAhA a tense/modal? [2 Updates]
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/504042abdd075c23
>
>
> =============================================================================
> Topic: "th" sounds in Lojban
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/c154628babc7ed1e
> =============================================================================
>
> ---------- 1 of 8 ----------
> From: Greendogo <pcm1123@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 19 11:35PM -0700
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/8bd7eb4fa727412b
>
> Hey, I was wondering how someone would write the "th" sounds of "then"
> and "thin" (respectively) in Lojbanic orthography without substituting
> the ' (h sound).
>
> I wish someone had taken into account that "th" sounds are very
> beautiful.
>
> Personally, my orthography would have used "x" for the "th" sound in
> "thin" and "dx" for the "th" sound in "then". I would have then used
> "h" for the guttural sound that "x" is now used for.
>
> I don't know why, but the two "th" sounds are probably my favorite
> sounds that the human mouth can produce.
>
>
> ---------- 2 of 8 ----------
> From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 09:14AM -0400
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/2924c5d88cae20eb
>
> They're not morphologically permitted, because so few languages have them.
> If you want to make them, you're going to have to do it inside ZOI.
>
> mu'o mi'e .latros.
>
>
>
> ---------- 3 of 8 ----------
> From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 09:15AM -0400
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/95acb7db588357f6
>
> (I may have misunderstood your question, though.)
>
>
>
> ---------- 4 of 8 ----------
> From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 11:56AM -0400
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/5ae1d97a3b6ec3c2
>
> Continuing what {latros} said, your question is similar to asking, "How
> would you write the 'th' in Russian?"
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
>
> ---------- 5 of 8 ----------
> From: "Alessandro \"Jake Dust\" Andrioni" <jakedust@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 01:03PM -0300
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/6b3293dde9c054bc
>
> (or in Portuguese, in German, in Spanish, in Italian, in Polish, in
> Mandarin, in Hebrew, in French, in Hindi, etc)
>
>
>
> ---------- 6 of 8 ----------
> From: Jameson Orndorff <jtorndorff@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 12:06PM -0400
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/732eef6e59586693
>
> The "th" in "thin" is a valid pronunciation of {'}.
>
> mi'e .kribacr.
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Alessandro "Jake Dust" Andrioni <
>
>
> ---------- 7 of 8 ----------
> From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 12:07PM -0400
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/bf420ecaf047e7cb
>
> But the converse isn't true. {'} is not a valid way of writing "th" as in
> "thin".
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
>
> ---------- 8 of 8 ----------
> From: Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl>
> Date: Apr 20 06:53PM +0200
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/b611e3181539604
>
> Dnia środa, 20 kwietnia 2011 o 08:35:53 Greendogo napisał(a):
>
>> I wish someone had taken into account that "th" sounds are very
>> beautiful.
>
> Matter of opinion. For me it sounds like spitting and I don't like to be
> spat on ;)
> --
> Ecce Jezuch
> "How can I respect your crime
> When all you criminals whine?" - P. Keenan
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Oblicz, ile kredytu dostanie Twoja firma!
> http://linkint.pl/f2989
>
>
>
> =============================================================================
> Topic: vlastezba: First beta version released!
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/a3ce6bfc08267540
> =============================================================================
>
> ---------- 1 of 15 ----------
> From: Johan Pretorius <pretoriusjf@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 11:02AM +0200
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/d1dfe90aea62bdea
>
> Hi all
>
> You can download it from here:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/vlastezba/files/vlastezba.jar/download
>
> I have completed the cmavo cluster breakout code, and tested it as far as I
> was able.
>
> It should be easy enough to run if you have Java 1.6 installed, just go java
> -jar vlastezba.jar and it will print out usage instructions.
>
> Please download it and test to pieces! I'd love all your feedback.
>
> Not that it doesn't get very smart at this stage - for instance, it won't
> know what to do if you feed it a string of lojban that doesn't have any
> spaces in. The only clever bit is that it's able to break apart cmavo
> clusters if they don't have any spaces.
>
> Regards,
> Johan
>
> --
> Johan Pretorius
> Cell: 0829268327
> pretoriusjf@gmail.com
>
>
> ---------- 2 of 15 ----------
> From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
> Date: Apr 20 08:29AM -0600
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/b642a0cc33253c19
>
> Do you have an external representation for your valsi parsing
> result? If I hand you the string "coirodo" is there a print
> form of that along the lines of ("coi" "ro" "do")?
>
> I would be interested seeing the result from processing a large
> data set of words and phrases and comparing that to jbogenturfa'i.
> In order to do this I'd need some output format from your program
> that I could parse.
>
> jbogenturfa'i uses the morphology PEG grammar that xorxes developed,
> so it contains code which I think is similar (and should be
> identical in result) to what you are doing:
>
> $ echo "coirodo"|jbogenturfahi --rafske
> ((cmavo (COI "coi")) (cmavo (PA "ro")) (cmavo (KOhA "do")))
>
> I'd be curious to know whether they are in fact producing identical
> results.
>
> -Alan
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:02:28AM +0200, Johan Pretorius wrote:
>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
>
> ---------- 3 of 15 ----------
> From: Johan Pretorius <pretoriusjf@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 04:51PM +0200
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/6a40436552989d01
>
> Hi Alan,
>
> That would indeed be an interesting experiment, I'd be quite keen to see the
> results myself.
>
> Right now, if you just call
>
> java -jar vlastezba.jar test.txt
>
> with some Lojban text (legal or otherwise) in test.txt, it will return (on
> stdout), one valsi per line. So "coirodo" would result in:
> coi
> ro
> do
> (you can make it go look up the definitions by passing a second parameter,
> but it will just add junk to the output that I don't think you'd want)
>
> Right now it doesn't check grammar at all, so you can throw any random
> collection of words at it (I don't intend for it to ever do this, there are
> tools out there that are far better at this than I could ever hope to make
> it).
>
> It also won't give you a classification of valsi - it doesn't "know" when
> it's dealing with a cmavo (or indeed what class), or a gismu, or a lujvo.
> This I DO intend to fix.
>
> I want to add other output formats anyway, so if you want me to do something
> specific to make your comparison easier, let me know. Now would be a good
> time, as I'm going away on holiday for a week, and wanted to spend at least
> a little bit of time on vlastezba.
>
> In fact, if you are comfortable with Java, feel free to make it do what you
> need, the source code is on sourceforge.net (
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/vlastezba/), and is GPL'ed :-)
>
> mu'o mi'e iu'an
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 4:29 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>
> --
> Johan Pretorius
> Cell: 0829268327
> pretoriusjf@gmail.com
>
>
> ---------- 4 of 15 ----------
> From: Brian Shannon <teapot.philosopher@googlemail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 04:02PM +0100
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/56807331a4d8b5cd
>
> "This software may not be copied or distributed in any form without
> the written permission of Postilion."
>
> This is *not* GPL'ed. Assuming you are the sole copyright holder,
> follow the GNU guide to license your software under the GPL.
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html
>
>
>
> ---------- 5 of 15 ----------
> From: Johan Pretorius <pretoriusjf@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 05:06PM +0200
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/c38383bd50d82c1b
>
> Oh wow, sorry about that... that would be my Eclipse being configured for
> work purposes. I'll get rid of that right away.
>
> Thanks for the link!
> Johan
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Brian Shannon <
>
> --
> Johan Pretorius
> Cell: 0829268327
> pretoriusjf@gmail.com
>
>
> ---------- 6 of 15 ----------
> From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
> Date: Apr 20 09:12AM -0600
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/f2bedb40aa8d19ab
>
> I can more-or-less work with the what it does now, so that is
> sufficient experimentation.
>
> I routinely write code like |if(var=="foo")| when I mean
> |if(var.equals("foo"))|, my Java isn't what it could be.
>
> I'm able to parse XML for tree-structured data, which is probably
> the easiest choice for interoperability:
>
> XML:
>
> <pruce>
> <selruhe>coi ro do</selruhe>
> <teryruhe>
> <cmavo selmaho="COI">coi</cmavo>
> <cmavo selmaho="PA">ro</cmavo>
> <cmavo selmaho="KOhA">do</cmavo>
> </teryruhe>
> </pruce>
>
> If this makes you cringe, then how about:
>
> csv:
>
> klesi,valsi
> COI,coi
> PA,ro
> KOhA,do
>
> Which unfortunately doesn't include the input string; I don't see a
> simple way to do that that is normal (as in normal form).
>
> -Alan
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 04:51:51PM +0200, Johan Pretorius wrote:
>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
>
> ---------- 7 of 15 ----------
> From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
> Date: Apr 20 09:22AM -0600
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/c2b7397b8b9bf2f3
>
> I'm not getting the result you report:
>
> $ echo "coirodo"|java -jar vlastezba.jar /dev/fd/0
> Read file [/dev/fd/0], got [0] unique words.
>
> This is also happening if I write the file and try it:
>
> $ cat test.txt
> coirodo
> $ java -jar vlastezba.jar test.txt
> Read file [test.txt], got [0] unique words.
>
> Here is my java version:
>
> $ java -version
> java version "1.6.0_24"
> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_24-b07-334-10M3326)
> Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 19.1-b02-334, mixed mode)
>
> -Alan
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 04:51:51PM +0200, Johan Pretorius wrote:
>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
>
> ---------- 8 of 15 ----------
> From: Johan Pretorius <pretoriusjf@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 05:24PM +0200
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/e6a63660f2b1c520
>
> Okay, the licensing is fixed now.
>
> Alan, The fact that you know that's a problem puts you in 1% of the
> population :-)
>
> Anyway, I'm not diametrically opposed to XML just for the sake of being
> opposed... it's worth looking at, especially, as you say, for
> interoperability.
>
> Do you think it's necessary to include the input string? I foresee
> vlastezba being used for large bodies of text, anyway that's how I intend to
> use it for myself: I feed it the terry the tiger story and let it build me
> something I can print out, which means my sucky vocabulary does not stop me
> reading the story, albeit slowly.
>
> Maybe it's a good idea to make that configurable.
>
> -Johan
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:12 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>
> --
> Johan Pretorius
> Cell: 0829268327
> pretoriusjf@gmail.com
>
>
> ---------- 9 of 15 ----------
> From: Brian Shannon <teapot.philosopher@googlemail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 04:31PM +0100
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/1876cefaaaa99fff
>
>
>
> ---------- 10 of 15 ----------
> From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
> Date: Apr 20 09:42AM -0600
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/7d5512378aad0f36
>
> I had not considered the use case of a large story, I was thinking
> of individual test strings and my need to know how input was paired
> with output. Particularly, I didn't want erroneous input in one
> test case to cause another input to parse incorrectly. I can (and
> should, really) work around this by calling the program multiple
> times.
>
> BTW, what result does your program produce for:
>
> ba'e ba'er ba'ercatra
>
> That should be something like:
>
> ((cmavo (BAhE "ba'e")) (cmene "ba'er") (lujvo "ba'ercatra"))
>
> With different results being produced depending on whether the
> spaces are there or not. I'm curious if you're handling that
> correctly.
>
> -Alan
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 05:24:31PM +0200, Johan Pretorius wrote:
>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
>
> ---------- 11 of 15 ----------
> From: Johan Pretorius <pretoriusjf@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 06:02PM +0200
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/b092dcbd68dded00
>
> To be honest, I sucked that example out of my ear based on how it was meant
> to work. The reason you didn't get that result, is because there were two
> bugs in the code:
> - We were ignoring the first line of any file (fixed it)
> - when the last word of the file is a compound cmavo, it gets misparsed and
> you only end up getting the first cmavo from the cluster, the rest are
> ignored. This one needs more careful thought.
>
> So, with the new jar file that I'm uploading as I speak, you should be able
> to do what tried to, just make sure you tack a gismu or something to the end
> of your file, so that you get accurate results. This time I tested it
> before making any wild claims :-)
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:22 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>
> --
> Johan Pretorius
> Cell: 0829268327
> pretoriusjf@gmail.com
>
>
> ---------- 12 of 15 ----------
> From: Johan Pretorius <pretoriusjf@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 06:08PM +0200
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/282fc544f1507e5e
>
> What is {ba'er} and what is {ba'ercatra}?
>
> When the spaces are there, I get:
> Read file [coirodo.txt], got [3] unique words.
> ba'er
> ba'e
> ba'ercatra
>
> When I take out the spaces, I get...
> Read file [coirodo.txt], got [1] unique words.
> ba'eba'erba'ercatra
>
> Which is... correct, I think? ba'er isn't a cmavo, so that thing isn't a
> cmavo cluster.
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:42 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>
> --
> Johan Pretorius
> Cell: 0829268327
> pretoriusjf@gmail.com
>
>
> ---------- 13 of 15 ----------
> From: Johan Pretorius <pretoriusjf@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 06:13PM +0200
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/b8d45903cbf7be13
>
> I have added this as a bug to the project so it doesn't fall into a crack
> and disappear.
>
>
>
> ---------- 14 of 15 ----------
> From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
> Date: Apr 20 10:16AM -0600
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/2b42d5a2300afcfa
>
> Ha! I took a look at your parser and I can see how both those
> mistakes could be made. :-)
>
> I haven't updated my .jar file, I tried instead to work around the
> bugs you report below:
>
> $ echo "^Mba'e ba'er ba'ercatra broda"|java -jar vlastezba.jar /dev/fd/0
> Read file [/dev/fd/0], got [4] unique words.
>
>
> ba'er
> ba'e
> ba'ercatra
> broda
>
> Ok, that seems pretty reasonable. If I remove all the spaces, I still
> expect there to be two words:
>
> $ echo "^Mba'eba'erba'ercatra broda"|java -jar vlastezba.jar /dev/fd/0
> Read file [/dev/fd/0], got [2] unique words.
>
>
> ba'eba'erba'ercatra
> broda
>
> That "ba'eba'erba'ercatra" should be two words, "ba'e" and the lujvo
> "ba'erba'ercatra"
>
> It also appears I can break things by using '.':
>
> $ echo "^Mba'e.ba'erba'ercatra broda"|java -jar vlastezba.jar /dev/fd/0
> Read file [/dev/fd/0], got [2] unique words.
>
>
> ba'e.ba'erba'ercatra
> broda
>
> There aren't any Lojban words with '.' in them.
>
> This problem is perhaps better demonstrated here:
>
> $ echo "^Mcoi.ro.do broda"|java -jar vlastezba.jar /dev/fd/0
> lojban.vlastezba.TokenizerFailure: Could not find any cmavo in [coi.ro.do]
> - last candidate cmavo was [.r], cmavo list is: {coi}
> at
> lojban.vlastezba.LojbanTokenizer.breakOutCmavo(LojbanTokenizer.java:292)
> at
> lojban.vlastezba.LojbanTokenizer.getNextWord(LojbanTokenizer.java:182)
> at
> lojban.vlastezba.LojbanTokenizer.nextWord(LojbanTokenizer.java:473)
> at
> lojban.vlastezba.GlossaryCreator.loadHashMap(GlossaryCreator.java:128)
> at
> lojban.vlastezba.GlossaryCreator.createGlossary(GlossaryCreator.java:32)
> at lojban.vlastezba.GlossaryCreator.main(GlossaryCreator.java:183)
>
>
> Cannonically, whitespace in Lojban is all of/some of the whitespace
> character class in your locale (until we get our own locale, probably the
> English whitespace character class) and the '.' character. It is often
> (informally) also any punctuation other than ' (and the UTF8 version
> of that...) and ,
>
> -Alan
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 06:02:09PM +0200, Johan Pretorius wrote:
>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
>
> ---------- 15 of 15 ----------
> From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
> Date: Apr 20 10:29AM -0600
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/369ddd36c274aa91
>
> ba'e, ba'er, and ba'ercatra are to me a fun demonstration of an
> interesting aspect of Lojban morphology.
>
> ba'e is a cmavo for emphasis. ba'e is *also* a rafsi for balre (blade).
> Since a rafsi can't appear as a word by itself, it is perfectly legal
> for the letters making up a rafsi to have a separate, independent cmavo
> definition. ba'er is also a valid cmene, so it is a cute example of an
> interesting case where ba'e, by itself, is a cmavo, but but in a lujvo
> means "blade." In the particular lujvo I chose, the required 'r' after
> ba'e, when *not* followed by more lujvo-stuff makes ba'er a cmene, having
> nothing to do with either emphasis or bladeness.
>
> -Alan
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 06:08:55PM +0200, Johan Pretorius wrote:
>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
>
>
> =============================================================================
> Topic: Why is CAhA a tense/modal?
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/504042abdd075c23
> =============================================================================
>
> ---------- 1 of 2 ----------
> From: ianek <janek37@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 19 11:01PM -0700
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/91b2ba5e7c67dff9
>
> coi
> Modals and tenses tend to be used in two main ways: {do'e broda} and
> {broda do'e ko'a}. But CAhA don't seem to work in the latter way.
> What would {broda ca'a ko'a} or {broda ka'e ko'a} mean?
>
> mu'o mi'e ianek
>
>
> ---------- 2 of 2 ----------
> From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 20 02:48AM -0400
> Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/4abe0783a74c6e29
>
> CAhA is a TAG so it works in at lot of the same ways that the other
> modals/tenses do. Just because something is syntacticly possible doesn't
> mean that it has to be semantically useful.
>
> The way that I have come to think of tags is that they add tense-like
> information to the selbri and then since tense-like information is only
> useful if you know what the anchor point is, you follow the tag with a sumti
> to describe, for example, what {broda} is {ba} TO. {mi citka ba lo nu mi
> xagji} is saying that I eat in the future. The future to what? To that
> time when I am hungry. Therefore, I eat in the future of the event of I am
> hungry.
>
> So as to what {broda ka'e lo nu brode} means... I don't know. An event that
> happens "in the future" is "in the future" TO some other event. The selbri
> is an "innate capability" in reference to what? Maybe the entity that is
> {ka'e}. {citka lo muno sovda ka'e la .luk.} -> {citka lo muno sovda} is
> {ka'e}. {ka'e} to what? To {la .luk.}. i.e. {la .luk. kakne lo nu citka
> lo muno sovda}. I dunno... that's how it would make the most sense to me.
> But it's late and I'm sleepy so if I'm off please forgive my ramblings.
> One of the jbocre will be along to set us straight shortly.
>
>
>
>
>
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.uisai mu'omi'e Me''di
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