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[lojban-beginners] Re: tanru/lujvo for [name] type of thing?


Am Freitag, 14.02.03 um 14:25 Uhr schrieb Jorge Llambias:


la ian cusku di'e


Is x3 for tags that in a given observation could be applied
but are not?
Yes, but not with the same brode (and not neccesarily the same velbo'e). 

I meant, for a given fixed brode, what goes in x3? Is it any tag
that could be applied by the velbo'e but is not applied in
the given brode? For example, in my observation of an apple
and tag "apple", can the x3 be "not-an-apple", "orange",
"banana", "stalactite", etc.? Or, given that in my observation
all I did was distinguish "apple" from the rest, the rest is
necessarily "not-apple"?
Ah ok, I see the problem. You ask about the brode as it is defined and I talk about the most basic operation of drawing a distinction and naming one side. 

With the brivla you can say:
.i brode la'o gy apple gy la'o gy orange gy

But that actually implies:
.i brode la'o gy apple gy le brode be la'o gy orange gy

and possibly:
.i.u'e brode la'o gy apple gy le brode be la'o gy orange gy bei le brode be la'o gy banana gy bei le brode be la'o gy stalactite gy bei le brode be le cimnytei
(btw, it also implies "brode le brode le brode le brode ... le brode be la'o gy apple gy", but that's hardly ever causing any problems, to the contrary: this helps to keep the system from noticing problems)
The most basic observation just names one side of the difference. Naming two sides is already 2 of those observations (and 2 differences) linked together. And I need X3 to be able to link them.
You can just say "brode da de", but you may need to be careful not to jump to conclusions that "de" is the onnly possible description for the unmarked state..
It's just a link I need to supply, so I can refer to the unmarked state. I think I might want to supply a further place for the form (see a previous post by me) of the observation. But I am not sure about that yet. 

But is x3 the unmarked state or a tag for the unmarked state?
If a tag, is the tag unique (for a given observation)? If it is
unique, can it ever be anything but "not-x2"?
Since we can't really communicate states, X3 contains some kind of tag (even though we may say that the tag represents the state). "le terbo'e be la'o gy Apple gy" is just such a tag. But we take it to represent the unmarked state.
The Problem with communication is: you don't really know what distinction anybody else has meant to draw. All you get is a name for one side of the distinction. And when you ask him further questions about the sides of this distinction, you can bet that you get answers that will not give names for exactly the same sides of exactly the same distinction.
"brode la'o gy Apple gy" can actually imply quite different differences that you can't catch with "le terbo'e be la'o gy Apple gy" .ipaunai la'o gy Orange gy ji la'o gy Microsoft gy selbo'e fi le terbo'e be la'o gy Apple gy 


Another way of saying it might be:

la saske cu pajni le du'u xukau jetnu enai le du'u xukau melbi
Science determines whether something is true, not whether it is
beautiful.


Explain "pajni" ;-)


What do you mean by "explain"? ;)
Well, "pajni" takes for granted that someone can determine something. If you want to explain how this determination is done, then you need to describe it in a different more basic way. 

"velbo'e" also takes for granted that someone can
determine something.
Well, but its a much more basic explanation that takes much less for granted. 


I might explain {pajni} as something like:

zo pajni zo'u ko'a lanli da zu'i pe ko'a gi'e jdice ko'e da
Then you need to explain "lanli" (and especially "zu'i pe zo'e te lanli") and "jdice". You use lots of different words for different operations. And every word has an implicit meaning (which varies with the cultural background). E.g to most "lanliy" implies that the analyst knows what he is doing. And "jdice" also may imply some type of authority.
"luman zei nunzga" only implies that a distinction is drawn and that one side of the distinction is called and that those operations are somehow linked together. You can't get more basic. 

Bye,
   Jan.

--
Jan Pilgenroeder
Theaterstr. 59
52062 Aachen