(also read chapter 3, section five, which
explicitly calls it two syllables.)
From:
lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Alex Martini
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007
8:09 AM
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re:
POM: the Princess puts her foot down
On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Elmo Todurov wrote:
On 07:41 Wed 24 Jan , Alex Martini wrote:
On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:29 AM, Elmo Todurov wrote:
On 17:06 Tue 23 Jan , Alex Martini wrote:
Is this the right stressing of {noltruti'u}? I expected {nol-TRU-
ti'u} as three Lojban syllables, since I was under the impression
that .y'y doesn't make a syllable break.
noltruTI'u is the correct pronounciation. y isn't counted as a
syllable-making purposes (like the word, banlydau (ignore the meaning,
it's just for illustration) is pronounced BANlydau).
If I count .y'y as a syllable break, I get {nol-tru-TI-hu} as the
second to last, but if I don't I get {nol-TRU-tihu} as second to last
using h for .y'y since it's easier to see as syllable initial. Which
seems to be the opposite of what you're saying.
{ti'u} counts, as far as I know, all as one syllable since y'y is not
a syllable break. If it were, then cmavo like {ba'o} would be two
syllables which isn't allowed.
Who says ' isn't a valid syllable breaking letter? I don't deny that I
might be wrong, but I was under the impression it _is_ allowed and _is_
a
2-syllable word. Could you please give me reference to the text that
says a single cmavo must be a single syllable, and that ' can't start a
The apostrophe represents
a phoneme similar to a short, breathy English ``h'', (IPA [h]). The letter
``h'' is not used to represent this sound for two reasons: primarily in order
to simplify explanations of the morphology, but also because the sound is very
common, and the apostrophe is a visually lightweight representation of it. The
apostrophe sound is a consonant in nature, but is not treated as either a consonant or a vowel for purposes of Lojban
morphology (word-formation), which is explained in Chapter 4. In
addition, the apostrophe visually parallels the comma and the period, which are
also used (in different ways) to separate syllables.
Standard cmavo occur in four forms defined by their word structure.
Here are some examples of the various forms:
VV-form .au .ei .ia .o'u .u'e
CVV-form ki'a pei mi'o coi cu'u
A simple
cmavo thus has the property of having only one or two vowels, or of having a
single consonant followed by one or two vowels. Words
consisting of three or more vowels in a row, or a single consonant followed by
three or more vowels, are also of cmavo form, but are reserved for experimental
use: a few examples are ``ku'a'e'', ``sau'e'', and ``bai'ai''. All CVV cmavo
beginning with the letter ``x'' are also reserved for experimental use. In
general, though, the form of a cmavo tells you little or nothing about its
grammatical use.
In this context, since they don't give a CVCV or CVhV form, y'y is not
considered at all, as if it were a quality attached between the vowels and not
a letter. Which is what 4.2 also says.
My understanding is that, for word formation and breaking into
syllables, y'y doesn't count at all. Then, when you actually pronounce the word
(and already placed the stress before considering y'y again) you add it back
in, and make a syllable break.
I don't have any reference that y'y can't start a syllable though. It's
not in any of the "syllable initial consonant" lists. But I think
that's a moot point, since y'y doesn't exist yet (for all practical purposes)
when you are breaking up a syllable. So y'y + vowel would just look like a bare
vowel at that point.
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