[lojban-beginners] Re: Firefox Add-on: Lojban Popup Dictionary

["Vid Sintef" <picos.picos@gmail.com>]

On 7/30/07, m.kornig@sondal.net <m.kornig@sondal.net> wrote:
> >    {vipsi}   x1 is a deputy/vice/subordinate in aspect [or
> > organization principle] x2 (ka) to principal x3
> >
> >    {juryri'a}   x1 = rinka1 (cause), x2 = junri1 (serious), x3 =
> > junri2 (subject), x4 = rinka3 (causation conditions)
> >
> > If these phrasings are unhelpful as you said, what is the helpful
> > option you have in mind for elaborating these definitions of {vipsi}
> > and {juryri'a}?
>
> Sorry, I don't understand the definition of {juryri'a}.

The definition says that the first sumti of {juryri'a} is what the
first sumti of {rinka} would be, and that the second sumti of
{juryri'a} is what the first sumti of {junri} would be, and so on.
Hence the description "x1 = rinka1, x2 = junri1 ...".

> I would claim that just one or two words would be helpful in many cases.
> Often not all places are needed. So why show the entire definition by default?

We are talking about the kind of definition that can be refered as a
dictionary description of a brivla. If what the dictionary gives is a
mere kind of description saying "vipsi = a deputy/assistant", *that*
is going to be unhelpful in the end. Let's say you are given a
definition "xamgu = .. is good"; now would you be able to understand
the not-uncommon expression {mi te xamgu do ti}? Which sumti has the
property of goodness here? Is it {mi}, {do}, or {ti}? Another one: a
given definition "tavla = ... talks/speaks to ..."; the sentence {fo
la klinton. tavla}; now is this {la klinton} the person who is the
speaker, or the person who is the listener, or the subject of the
talk, or the language in which the talk is conversed?

We shouldn't confuse the nature of Lojban brivla's definition with
that of natural language counterparts. Remember, Lojban is based on
predicate logic, not propositional logic on which most natlangs are
based. You may say "children of men", "children of hope", "children of
war", or "children of alcoholics" in English, by replacing back to
back what comes after "children"; you can alter the "default" of the
words by which "children" can be modified (and such a thing as place
structure doesn't exist in English first of all). It's not the case in
Lojban. What fills the second sumti place of "panzi" will always be
that which is/are parent(s) of that which is the referent of the first
sumti (therefore the unambiguity of the language). The core of
semantic information, in Lojban, is predicate/selbri. So, if one does
not get the fact of a selbri's place structure as a whole, he/she
won't be trully acquiring a Lojban word. One may not acquire {tavla}
by simply identifying it with the English "speak/talk" or the German
"sprechen/reden" when he/she is still unable to comprehend the
sentence {fo la klinton. tavla}.

> The other day I was looking for the translation of "house". And
> it took me some 10 minutes to find {zdani} in the gismu list (which
> is described by "nest" if I remember correctly). This is what I mean
> by *strange phrasing*.

As far as it was the case with computer, it wouldn't have taken you 10
minutes if you did simply use the search/find tool.

If it was the case with some paper medium, perhaps the same amount but
almost certainly far more time would have taken you in almost every
language dictionary. Say I'm looking for a German word for "sorrow" in
a German-English dictionary; I'll have to go throgh about 300,000
words until I run into the English "sorrow" to find its equivalent. I
wouldn't do that. Instead I would use an English-German dictionary.

Now say I'm looking for a Lojban word for "dream"; I would go through
an English-Lojban dictionary, a tentative one of which is
http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/gismu_english_order.txt
Searching for the line "d", I can easily catch the word "dream" and
its counterpart "senva".

Notice that there's no index of "house" in the list. That's because
there's no exclusive gismu
for that concept. Karl has had a good point here. "house" is to be
conceived of as a *derivative* concept of "nest". We, as human beings,
tend to set "house" above "nest" because the former seems to be of
civilized and the latter uncivilized. However, if we think carefully,
we may notice that a) there's no reason we should regard the concept
"house" more generic than "nest" and b) it's rather "house" which is
likely to be more specific than "nest". That's why we want the word
"zdadi'u" to specifically mean something which is a "nest+building" or
"building-like nest" which is in fact a true equivalent of
"house/home".

"zdadi'u" is a lujvo, so it isn't on the gismu list, and currently we
seem to have no English-keyword-oredered version of lujvo list yet, so
a manual skimming for an English keyword won't be as practical a
method to find out a wanted lujvo. But that's not a problem as long as
you're using computer, since there's always some kind of text search
tool. (Now what I wish to have is a better tool to do that same
frequent task: a Lojban pop-up dictionary as a Firefox add-on.)