In a message dated 7/6/2002 9:53:08 AM Central Daylight Time, gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch writes:<> I interpret Nmei as being a bijection between the N members of the set in I take it as an injection 3 >2, as it were: I think that elements in 3 have also to be in 2. >if > > >even one ball is green (sometimes if even one ball has a green spot). > > > > But this is only true because of the implicit pisu'o. It seems to me that it > should only be true if "enough" of the balls are green so that, when > considered as a mass the mass is green. Very little of a pine tree is > actually green (with shadows and all, even less than half) but {le ckunu > tricu cu crino} is true because the tree is considered as the mass of it's > components. <>if > > >even one ball is green (sometimes if even one ball has a green spot). > > > > But this is only true because of the implicit pisu'o. It seems to me that it > should only be true if "enough" of the balls are green so that, when > considered as a mass the mass is green. Very little of a pine tree is > actually green (with shadows and all, even less than half) but {le ckunu > tricu cu crino} is true because the tree is considered as the mass of it's > components.> I don't think that a tree is considered a mass at all (usually, anyhow). It is green just because that is the way we use that word -- analysis might suggest something about what they way is but would not change the humanly primitive use here. <> Agreed, we can live with an implied pisu'o on {lei bolci}, but you can't > extend that to {mei}> Well, it is one way to get consistency into the mass system, the next step will be to make the system intensional, which is generally something to be avoided as long as possible. <> Bzzt. I don't recall any examples given by anyone which explain to me what > it is that we have already established. In other words, I can not extract > any semantical meaning to what you have just said.> Too late for an English lesson here, though what examples you want is unclear, so you are apparently reporting accurately. What I think you may be trying to say is that you can't find a case where xorxes agreed to something that I said that clearly made the size of the set different from the size of the mass. You are right in that; I misunderstood xorxes' definition of {mei}. <>> I think tatpi is a particularly bad example.> It is a good example of a particular kind of problem,one where it is difficult to say what "sum" means in very explicit terms. <> I'd say the truth condition of {lei broda cu tatpi} "should" have more to do > with what {broda} we are dealing with than with the truth conditions of {N > le broda cu tatpi}. In Lojban, {lei nanmu cu tatpi} is true if just one of > the men has tired legs. Who cares if they just want to play on the PSII. It > should be true when the mass of men is tired. With tiredness, this will > happen when some of them are tired and then psychological factors come into > play so that at some point we say {lei nanmu cu tatpi}. Which is a mass > factor with little correlation to what {xokau le nanmu cu tatpi} returns. > With {lei skami cu tatpi} (supposing that Windows outputed {mi tatpi} > instead of crashing). I wouldn't say that until either all of them were > tired, or enough of them for it to hinder their work "as a group".> Right, which is why {tatpi} is a good example -- though I am not sure that tired legs is enough for a man to be tired. {xo le nanmu cu tatpi} -- {kau} is only for subordinate clauses. <> Another way of looking at this has occured to me: take some painters. {lei > nanmu cu tatpi} would probably hinder their functionality as a mass. Maybe a > ladder needs to be held and the guy meant to be holding it got tired. The > way {lei} works, {lei nanmu cu tatpi .ijo su'o le nanmu cu tatpi}. A mass > should be more than the sum of it's elements. I'm sure there must be some > relation for which {lei broda cu brode .ijenai su'o le broda cu brode} is > true.> Certainly not {ijo}; for one man (say) might be tired but the whole group not. It might even be the case that the group was tired though no one member was, I think (if not {tatpi} then surely something else will work here). To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |