In a message dated 8/12/2002 5:54:14 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: << The way I understand {tu'a}, {mi nitcu tu'a lo dinko} and >> As I say somewhere around here, it's an idiom, but a perfectly transparent one, I think -- the bare {lo dinko} is just like the {tu'a} one, {le du'u lo dinko ce'o} but the absence of the {tu'a} allows extensional moves to proceed, as is occasionally desirable. << On the other hand {mi nitcu lo dinko} and {mi nitcu lo'e dinko} are compatible type of expressions, because both have nails as the second argument, in one case referred to by extension and in the other case by intension. >> So you say, but since you give no clue about what {lo'e dinko} means, I have no reason to believe it other than my trust in you -- which is wearing thin at the moment. In the only visible sense of "have as the second argument", both {mi nitcu tu'a lo dinko} and {mi nitcu lo dinko} have nails as the second argument, in one case in extension, in the other in intension. And we know how these critters work, unlike {lo'e}. << What I'm suggesting is that all it does in the sumti place is blot it, just like {zi'o}, but differs from {zi'o} in that it blots and adds semantic content. Both leave behind a selbri with fewer places, and neither names a critter. >> As I have said before on this, you can't have it both ways. If it blots it is a semantic null. If it not a semantic null then it does not blot but is a sumti which adds some kind of reference in that place. How, exactly, would this {lo'e broda} add semantic content other than by referring (in which case, it is not a blot but merely filling one slot with a particular item). << I don't have a formal proposal, maybe I will adhere to yours. But the essence is that {broda lo'e brode} should not entail {broda da}. >> This, of course, goes against your own principle that all bridi places are extensional. The nearest thing I have been able to come up with in trying to understand this is {lo'e broda} in a place is part of a disjoint tanru (if it ain't a thing then its a predicate in Lojban) which has some effect on the indicated place -- different from having it filled by a reference to a broda, but distinctly brodaish, so different from what {lo'e brode} would do. I have no idea how that would work-- in particular, how an explanation of what the heck was going on would read, but at least it would make a sort of syntactic sense (though there are not otherwise discontinuous unmarked tanrus and {lo'e} is clearly a gadri, which play no role in tanrus). << Why can't there be meaningful plugs? >> A place that isn't there cannot contribute anything (general theory that the meaning of a sentence is a function of its parts).
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