Re: [lojban] Re: consolation

[Jorge "Llambías" <jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar>]

--- Martin Bays <mbays@freeshell.org> wrote:
> cu'u la xod.

mi'e la xod na.e la xorxes u'i

> > Perhaps {lo nu broda cu mulno} <==> {ba'o mo'u broda}, since the
> > LHS is tenseless so the RHS should be tenseless too.
> 
> Hmmm... I see your point, but I'm not sure using multiple ZAhO in a single
> tense gives a meaningful tense, at least in CLL Lojban. 

It is grammatical, why would it not be meaningful?

CLL doesn't mention multiple ZAhO explicitly, but it does
have a multiple number ROI example, which follows the same
principle:

>>Note the difference between:
>>
>>10.13)  mi pare'u paroi klama le zarci
>>        I [first time] [one time] go-to the store.
>>        For the first time, I go to the store once.
>>
>>and 
>>10.14)  mi paroi pare'u klama le zarci
>>        I [one time] [first time] go-to the store.
>>        There is one occasion on which I go to
>>        the store for the first time.

So {ba'o mo'u broda} would be the aftermath of the completion 
of brodaing, and {mo'u ba'o broda} would be the completion of the
aftermath, if that ever makes sense.

> I would interpret
> that as, if anything, "At some glorked point in time, something both is
> having broda-ed and is at the point of completion of broda-ing" - which
> makes no sense.

That might be more like {ba'o je mo'u}. 

> > >  - for states (and activities?), {le nu broda cu mulno} means something
> > > 	along the lines of broda being as true as possible during the
> > > 	state/activity.
> >
> > Yes, I suppose that it has to work for activities too:
> >
> >    le nu mi bajra cu mulxadba ze'a le pamoi mentu gi'eku'i
> >    mulno ze'a le drata temci
> >    My running was half-hearted for the first minutes, but
> >    to the full for the rest of the time.
> >
> 
> 'K. Though again, your non-CLL use of tense seems strange to me, however
> useful.

What's non-CLL about that?

CLL:
>>12.12)  loi snime cu carvi
>>        ze'u le ca dunra
>>        some-of-the-mass-of snow rains
>>        [long time interval] the [present] winter.
>>        Snow falls during this winter.


> > >  - for point-events...? Both interpretations make sense.
> >
> > Do you have an example?
> 
> No. But only because I don't really understand point events, except as
> another way of looking at states/activities/processes - which is why I
> said both the state and process version make sense.

Right. 

> > >  - for objects, mulno's other, three-place structure applies.
> >
> > I suppose we could say that for events the full place structure
> > applies too, with x2 being {le ka ce'u fasnu}:
> >
> >    le nu mi klama le zarci cu mulno le ka fasnu}
> >    My going to the market is complete in its occurring.
> >
> >    le nu mi gleki cu mulno le ka fasnu
> >    My being happy is complete in its occurring.
> 
> Sounds reasonable. Alternatively you could take the event definition to be
> primitive, and define the object one in terms of it:
> 
> {ke'a mulno le ka [ce'u] broda} :<==> {le nu ke'a broda cu mulno}
> 
> But then we have the problem of whether {le nu ke'a broda} is a state or
> a process - {mi ca mulno le ka jmive} could be either "I have completed
> the process of living [and am dead]" or "I am completely alive".
> 
> And if not that, then how in general to interpret the x2 of mulno?

Indeed {le nu mi jmive cu ca mulno}, "my life is now full/finished" is
ambiguous, too, depending on whether we are thinking of life as a 
process or as a state. (The gi'uste definition of jmive suggests the 
state as the basic interpretation, though.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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