Re: [lojban] Re: Tenses (was: Re: consolation)

[Jorge "Llambías" <jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar>]

la maten cusku di'e

> > http://www.lojban.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=81
> I can see both interpretations of ZAhO as sumtcita make sense, but (1)
> is the one I've always understood. Also, I'd suggest the usage of
> ba'o/pu'o as sumtcita with (1) is more frequent than (and so trumps) the
> usage of co'a/co'u with (2). Isn't it?

It's hard to say. In my usage it is not, because I simply don't
use ba'o/pu'o as sumtcita. The main problem with that interpretation
is that it requires that {<tag> selbri} not be equivalent to 
{<tag> zo'e selbri}. ZAhOs would be the exception to the rule.

> > See also:
> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Internal+grammar+of+tags
> 
> Hmmm. I don't know about this idea of flattening out the tense grammar.
> As it stands, the grammatical structure more or less reflects the
> semantic structure - which I'd have thought was a Very Good Thing.

Why is {co'a na'o broda} "starting to typically broda" allowed, but 
not {na'o co'a broda} "typically starting to broda"? How does one
reflect semantic structure more than the other? 

> Tenses refer to something as concrete and tractable as subsets of
> space-time - so surely we ought to be able to formulate a nice formal
> semantics for them, with the grammar corresponding.

Yes. We certainly don't need the artificial restrictions of the
current grammar.

> What I'm saying is - if you want to allow tenses which don't fit in to
> the imaginary journey model then fine - but I for one won't be happy
> until a theory giving them a definite, explicit meaning is developed.

The imaginary journey model is for PU and FAhA, and for the
magnitudes of the displacements. Aspect and interval properties are 
about the event itself, not about its location in space-time.
 
> > CLL:"The remaining tense cmavo, which have to do with interval size,
> > dimension, and continuousness (or lack thereof) are interpreted to let
> > the sumti specify the particular interval over which the main bridi
> > operates"
> >
> > The seltcita sumti specifies the interval.
> 
> Shit. You're right. You know how you can read something, repeatedly,
> without really reading it - because you *know* what it says? Or you
> think you do. My sincere apologies for earlier accusing you of
> CLL-heresy - really rather rude of me, thinking about it, as well as
> wrong.

No problem, I truly am a heretic sometimes, so I'm not very
offended when I'm falsely accused of being one. :)
 
> OK, I no longer understand tenses as sumtcita. I thought I did, but it
> seems I was wrong.
> 
> So how does this work with a full tense rather than just a fragment of
> one? What would
>     {loi snima cu carvi pu zi ze'a ba'o le ca dunra}
> mean, for instance?

First you'd have to tell me what {loi snima pu zi ze'a ba'o carvi}
means. Your sentence is very similar, but with the current winter
as reference, instead of an implicit one. I would take it to mean
that a short time ago, for a medium interval of time, it had snowed
(then I suppose it must have started to snow again, otherwise how
would you know that the aftermath lasted a medium interval and will
not a last for a long one?). But it is not something I imagine saying 
very often.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
 

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