Re: [lojban] On not using du for is

["And Rosta" <a.rosta@lycos.co.uk>]

ro(r)k:
> At http://people.fix.no/arj/lojban/malglico.html 
> the example "ti du le mi patfu" is given as malglico for 
> "ti patfu mi". The main reason is that one is not taking advantage 
> of the place structures of the brivla. 
> 
> So, if I were speaking of my mother as it is usually understood in 
> English, I would say "ti mamta mi". "ti du le mi mamta" isn't wrong, 
> but means the same as "ti du le mi pe mamta" and "ti du le mamta pe 
> mi". That isn't incorrect; the woman described by "le mamta be mi 
> be'o" is associated with me in some way (by being my mother), but it 
> is unclear. But suppose I actually want the looser association 
> meant by "pe". The example that I have thought of for this is a 
> Lamaze class. The woman that I am describing by using "le mamta pe 
> mi" is unlikely to be "le mamta be mi be'o". It's possible (if only 
> in theory in the case of me and my mother), but it certainly isn't 
> implied. 
> 
> Now my question is how would I best express "ti du le mamta pe mi" 
> without the "du"?

"ti patfu mi" and "ti du le patfu be mi" are *not* synonymous. The
former -- in close translation -- means "This sires me". The latter
means "This is him, who is one that sires me". Therefore there is
no trivial du-less paraphrase of "ti du le mamta pe mi".

"ti du le mi patfu" is malglico only when the speaker intends the
meaning "ti patfu mi". When the speaker genuinely intends the
meaning "ti du le mi patfu", it is not malglico. The malgliconess
comes simply from meaning X but saying Y, because Y more closely
resembles the we X is expressed in English.

--And.


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