Re: [lojban] Re: the meter is a unit of length

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On 8/4/05, John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > klani [ lai ] quantity
> > x1 is a quantity quantified/measured/enumerated
> > by x2 (quantifier) on
> > scale x3 (si'o)
> 
> Really?  "quantity" in that sense (a bunch of
> things)? If so, scratch the remark about {klani}
> above and enroll {ni} as a se klani.  One would,
> however, have expected {klani} to have a place
> for the sort of things involved, if this was the
> real meaning:"The Giants are a quantity of
> baseball players (coming up- to nine on a head
> count)"

I would say:

    la djaiants cu klani li so lo kelci
    The Giants amount to nine in players.

but then I favour changing the x3 of klani to the more straightforward
"units", rather than the more abstract "scale". If you want to keep
a scale there, then you can say the same thing in a more roundabout
way:

   la djaiants cu klani li so lo se gradu be lo kelci
   The Giants amount to nine on a scale whose units are players.

This sidesteps the issue of how to refer to a scale by using the units
instead (lo se gradu be ...). Another way of sidestepping it would
be {lo ckilu be ...}, here using the property instead of the scale:

   la djaiants cu klani li so lo ckilu be lo ka xo kau kelci cu cmima ce'u
   The Giants amount to nine on a scale for measuring how many players
   it has.

In any case, a simple {la djaiants cu klani li so} will probably be understood
with the "right" x3 in many contexts. 

But how we can describe a scale other than as {lo se gradu be...} or´
{lo ckilu be...}, I don't know.

> > dukti [ dut ] opposite ; 'contrary'
> > x1 is polar opposite from/contrary to x2 in
> > property/on scale x3
> > (property/si'o)
> 
> I wonder which this really is, polar opposite or
> contrary (point or area, or specific v
> indefinite). "Contrary" makes the best sense.

lo zunle cu dukti lo pritu
lo berti cu dukti lo snanu
lo barda cu dukti lo cmalu
lo broda cu dukti lo to'e broda

> > If ni is the quantitative aspect of a property
> > (which I might
> > write as {ka se la'u ma kau ...}) then it's not
> > clear how it can
> > be a number, like se mitre, se klani, te merli
> > or namcu.
> >
> Well it is again a reading on a scale (and an
> amount, at least sometimes)so numbers seem
> natural for many cases -- or numeroid things like
> "huge."
> (Suggesting a reading involving {la'u} doesn't
> help a lot, since the rules for that -- and the
> meaning when properly used -- are even less clear
> than those for {ni}, as far as I can find.)

For me the problem with {ni} is not so much unclarity of
the possible meanings, there are basically three that I can
identify, each pretty clear. The problem is that there is no
consistency in sticking with just one of them, even for the
same person.

mu'o mi'e xorxes