RE: "what i have for dinner"

["Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx]

At 02:50 PM 01/05/2000 -0700, trevor hill wrote:
> > Kinin:
> > > «People used to use {jei} for "whether", until it was
> > realized that if
> > > le jei da klama is TRUE, then you are claiming that ro da
> > zo'u mi kucli
> > > TRUE -- which is not what you want to claim at all. li'osa'a»
>
>I believe that we are not defining terms specifically enough here, in regard
>to references to values and the values themselves... I think i've brought
>this point up before, in a more general context, but ....
>
>I think that a predicate inside jei should in its entirety evaluate to "the
>truth value of <predicate>",

No, that is the x1 of "jei predicate", which is what is accessed by "le jei".

> which is a predicate itself that need not be "evaluated" so to speak.

Predicates do not need to be evaluated. But their places may have 
values. the problem being posed here is for a case where there is a value 
and it is known. The problem in "kucli le jei broda" is one of sumti 
raising. We are really kucli le du'u broda, being curious about the 
specific desired fact. I believe the reference grammar example uses 
"jdice" which might or might not work with jei.

>If we automatically evaluate everything we say, in this sense, we will be
>speaking nonsense. The meaning is in the _unevaluated_ bridi and sumti...
>not in the final truth value........... for instance:
>
>If i say in english "I am a dog", this is false, but it's not the same thing
>as saying "false"....

But "the truth value of 'I am a dog'" equates to "false".

The main problem I see with these constructs is that of losing context.

If I say "I know the truth value of broda" and that truth value is "true", 
then there is loss of information to say "I know 'true'"/

lojbab
----
lojbab ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS*** lojbab@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.