Re: [lojban] Final Clubs oops

["Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@hotmail.com>]

la pycyn cusku di'e

> Well, the definition isn't a real definition (maybe) except in the context
> where there is a set of final clubs. Then, of course, the definition is 
> just
> fine.

In the context where there is a unique set of possible final
clubs the definition is fine. In all other contexts, there
are more than one possible sets, and then we don't have a
definition. I don't think there is any possible case where
there are no final clubs, unless singleton sets of final clubs
are not allowed, in which case there are no final clubs only
when no club has any preclusions.

> It originated, no doubt, from the selection of one maximally
> preclusive set of clubs as the final set.

Right.

> But once that choice was made --
> however it was made -- the result follows automatically.

Yes... Once we know which are the final clubs, they do
fit the description. But that is not a definition.

> One could even add
> new final clubs by simply having them preclude all the current final clubs.

Yes.

> I gather that Xorxes' remaining problem is to find a way to specify how 
> that
> original choice was made, but that does not seem to be in the definition,
> only in the history.

Well, then the problem was ill posed. It gave a set of
premises (Students are allowed to join zero or more clubs,
some clubs are final, a final club is defined as any club
such that membership in it precludes membership in any
other final club), and we were asked to find a non-circular
definition of final clubs. But how can we do that when the
premises are insufficient?

If it was a problem about the actual situation at Yale,
then let us know what are the actual preclusions of
Yale's clubs. From the premises given, the only possible
conclusion is that all Yale clubs are final.

> This is unsatisfying intellectually, but works for the
> real world (or wherever Yale happens to be).

I don't see how it works at all. All you are telling me
is that one of the maximally preclusive sets is the set
of final clubs. I agree with that. But that does not define
for me the final clubs. Were I to go to Yale and obtain
all the preclusion rules of all clubs, I would still be
unable to figure out which clubs were final, unless they
all were.

Does anyone have a list of actual Yale clubs and their
preclusion rules?

co'o mi'e xorxes

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