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Re: [lojban] "knowledge as to who saw who" readings



In a message dated 10/11/2001 6:02:42 PM Central Daylight Time, lojbab@lojban.org writes:


No idea if it really is relevant, but a debate from 1990 is a REALLY old one.

Yes, and so are the answers.  Certainly not acceptable today (I hope):
8 versions of "John is looking for a bicycle or a fish" split on 1) whether the thinks are known to exist, 2) whether John knows/cares which he islooking for 3) whether the speaker knows which he is looking for
<1. There are a bike and a fish, and John is trying to find one of these (he doesn't care which one).                
la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e .a lo finpe
The-one-called John seeks an-existing bicycle (lit., two-wheel-vehicle)or an-existing fish. >

Well, {lo} doesn't guarantee it is existing, only that it really is a fish (if anything)
{da poi relxi'uma'e de poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a de}  (note, this buried connective cannot be raised).

<2. There are a bike and a fish, and John is trying to find one of these (but I don't know which of the two he's actually looking for).                
la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e bu'a sisku lo finpe>
The-one-called John (seeks an-existing bicycle) or (seeks an-existing fish). >

Again, the actual existence can only be handled outside the the intensional context:


<3. There is a bike, and John is trying to find either this bike or a (possibly non-existent) fish (he doesn't care...)                
la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e .a le finpe

The-one-called John seeks an-existing bicycle or the-thing-I-describe-as-a fish (which may or may not be a fish, or even exist). >

da poi relxi'uma'e zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a lo finpe

4. There is a bike, and John is trying to find either this bike or somefish (but I don't know...).                
la djan. cu sisku lo relxi'uma'e bu'a sisku le finpe

The-one-called John (seeks an-existing bicycle) or (seeks the-thing-I-describe-as-a-fish (which may or may not be a fish, or even exist)). >

da poi relxi'uma'e zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da gi'e sisku lo finpe (there may be a shorter way for this, but I am not sure about the rules here.)

<5. & 6. Similar to 3. & 4., but with the roles of "bike" and "fish" interchanged.                 la djan.cu sisku le relxi'uma'e .a lo finpe               
       la djan. cu sisku le rexi'uma'e bu'a siske lo finpe >

da poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da a lo relxi'uma'e
da poi finpe zo'u la djan sisku tu'a da gi'e sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e

<7. John is looking for a (possibly non-existent) bike or a (possibly non-existent) fish, and will be satisfied when he has found either one.                
la djan. cu sisku le relxi'uma'e .onai le finpe
The-one-called John seeks what-I-describe-as-a bicycle exclusive-or what-I-describe-as a fish. >
I'm not sure why the exclusive "or" suddenly.  I ignore:
la djan sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e a lo finpe.

<8. John is looking for a bike or a fish, both possibly non-existent, but I don't know which one he's looking for.                
la djan. cu sisku le relxi'uma'e bu'onai sisku le finpe
The-one-called John (seeks what-I-describe-as-a bicycle) exclusive-or(seeks what-I-describe-as-a fish).>
la djan sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e gi'a finpe (dubious, better stick to sisku tu'a lo relxi'uma'e gi'a sisku lo finpe).