In a message dated 2/14/2002 5:03:39 PM Central Standard Time, thanatos@dim.com writes:Oh, that's what started the whole argument. Are the {lo melbi} Two different things seem to have gotten mixed together here. In {ta nixli je melba vau}, they pretty much have (I think) to be the same thing. It can't be expanded other than to {ta nixli gi'e melba} (more or less -- expansion isn't the whole of interpretation but it goes a long way). But in {ta nixli je melba ckule}, at least three sources have reasonable plausibility: {ta nixli ckule ije ta melba ckule}, {ta ckule fi lo nixli je melba} and {ta ckule fi lo nixli ije ta ckule fi lo melba}. In the middle case, I think tht the nixli and the melba have to be the same, in the other two cases, not (indeed, the identity of what is the nixli in the case of {nixli ckule} is itself ambiguous -- ditto the melba (one is, in fact case three)). So, as a modifier, {nixli je melba} is a good deal more diverse, potentially, than is as a modified, and the constant switching ack and forth that you do (presumably mirroring the earlier discussion in the beginners list, tends to confuse the two. <I would have thought that tanru are reversible as long as you drag along the appropriate sumti with "be". If I am going to a cinema, then the following tanru are nearly identical save for emphasis: 1. mi skina klama 2. zo'e skina co klama befa mi To say that I, a goer, am somehow related to some cinema is also to say that some cinema is somehow related to me, a goer.> And here may be the source of the rest (or another large piece) of the problem. Tanru are generally NOT reversible, the modifier-modified relationship is asymmetric,. Sentence 1 above is about going of a particular sort -- to the flix, presumably (though it might be in the flix or whatever). Sentence 2 is a flick, apparenty the kind I go to (or the kind I go in or...). 1 asserts that I go in a certain way, sentence says that something is a certain kind of movie. I suppose there is a relation between the two but it is not anywhere in the same city (let alone ball park) as meaning the same except for emphasis. <The emphasis is changed if you switch the seltau and tertau, but the underlying relations expressed don't change. {ckule nixli} is a direct translation of "schoolgirl", and while not the best translation isn't false. A schoolgirl is a girl and related to something which is a school. {melbi nixli} doesn't need any handwaving. So, {melbi je nixli co ckule befa ta}, could be spontaneously uttered for "Hey look, a cute girl, of that school."> Pretty much flatly "No." The only thing that is wrong with {ckule nixli} for "schoolgirl" is that it could be several other things as well (although "school -girl" is not unambifuous either). Actually, {melbi nixli} is no less problematic than {ckule nixli}, it is just that it fits are English habits better (we take {melba} to be an adjective and {nixli} a noun) but it could equally refer a girl of a beautiful age or one immature by a beautiful standard, and that is just getting started. As for the last bit, that is not hopelessly off track, but it does not note that the "cute" part is also related to "that-is-a-school" (not "that school," which {levi ckule} and would need {me} for this construction). It is not clear what "a that-is-a-school kind of beautiful thing" -- nor a "that-is-a-school kind of girl" either (a girl who says such obvious things as "That is a school"? Doh!) <In that way "co" can be used to add essentially an entire related bridi in afterthought. {mi le zdani cu klama co ragve le rirxe le ckule} That may not be an academic use of "co", but it's useful in conversation.> There are some ways to add to tanru in afterthought mode; {co} just allows belated modifiers and I don't remember how to add other pieces, aside from erasing back and starting over, but I think there are some ways. However, your example is modifier added, so not a problem -- of that sort. What "across the river from the school going" might be is unclear: it is pretty clearly not crossing the river. I would suppose that it means that my route home is on the other side of the river from the school, but don't feel very comfortable about taht. What did you intend? |