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Re: [lojban] Re: Quantifiers, Esistential Import, etc.



In a message dated 3/9/2002 12:49:42 PM Central Standard Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


This does have regularity, but it makes transformations
complicated. For example, {naku ro broda} goes to
{su'o da poi broda naku} instead of just {su'o broda naku},
and so on.


Sure, because the denial of an importing quantifier is a free one (but you don't need the {su'o} in the second).  This is a regular feature of all the DeMorgan's in this system -- with the convenience that you can tell at a glance whether an _expression_ is importing or not ({lo broda} v. {da poi})

<The Book has {ro da poi broda cu brode} for A+ (pg 399), which
goes against both our systems>

I have complained about that passage -- and a couple of others of the same sort -- since before the book came out.  With my usual success, of course (obviously).  It's bad logic and worse Lojban.  Unless, of course, it were taken to mean that {da poi} was also +, which it clearly is not in other places and certainly in common practice.

<it allows all the transformations
that my system allows (section starting on page 405).>

Does mine miss any (in content, form is screwed up a bit here)?

<It also says
explicitly that {su'o da poi verba naku klama su'o de poi ckule}
is identical in meaning to {su'o verba naku klama su'o ckule},
which is what my system allows, but not yours.>

Yes, I have had to fiddle a bit with the meaning of {da poi} -- a meaning that was not very clearly worked out anyhow, as witness your example on 399 in contrast with several other cases.  I admit that, when I started this, I had hopes of keeping {da poi} on the + side and making all the - go over to {ganai gi}, but a bit of water-testing assured me this would never fly -- in spite of 399 and the other places. I would be more than happy to go to that system if I thought I could get away with it among the users.  The present one is a compromise keeping as much as makes good use of the usual material without doing too much damage to bad habits people (including Central) have picked up.