Re: [lojban] Re: semantic primes can define anything

["Jorge Llambías" <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On 3/26/06, John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> --- Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The essential thing in this context was that
> > the
> > prime FEEL does not have a Lojban equivalent,
> > that
> > Lojban splits this prime in two: {cinmo} and
> > {ganse}.
>
> Well, neither of them fits very well: {cinmo} is
> explicitly about emotions, with the rpoblems
> noted; {ganse} wants a stimulus.  How does one
> say "I feel (something) bad"?

"I feel bad" could be {mi cortu} or {mi dunku}, but we'd
need more context. There is no general "feel" in Lojban that
covers both emotions and sensations.

> > Other primes that Lojban seems to split are for
> > example THINK into {pensi} and {jinvi},
>
>  this seems to be clearly {jinvi} "think
> something about something," there is some
> discussion of a need to divide it into "think
> something" and "think about."  Incidentally, why
> does Lojban have two words here?

At least the paraphrase for "loves" seems to use both:

X often thinks about Y
X thinks good things about Y

X so'i roi pensi Y
X jinvi lo zabna Y

The first one does not say that X often has opinions about Y,
but that Y is often on X's mind.

>  HAPPEN
> > into {fasnu} and {se lifri}
>
> Mainly {se lifri} the line seems laways to be
> "Something happens to something."

So the sense of {fasnu} would not be prime?

>  and probably KNOW
> > into
> > {djuno} and {se slabu}.
>
> I can't find a {se slabu} case, but I have a list
> of only a couple dozen cases.

Right, it's hard to be sure from just the keyword. Presumably this
has been worked out since this is not a particularly Lojbanic
distinction.

>  Not to mention the very
> > problematic HAVE.
>
> It seems to be the minimal "alienable use" sense
> (which Lojban doesn't do to well), but I can't
> find an example of it.

Well, either Lojban doesn't do it well or Lojban doesn't do it just
like English. If the English way is truly prime and universal, then
Lojban doesn't do it well.


> > I don't know what the Spanish prime
> > corresponding
> > to YOU is either. There are four candidates:
> > "tú", "usted", "ustedes" and "vosotros", and
> > it's hard
> > to say that there are no conceptual differences
> > among
> > them.
>
> I think it has to be "usted," but again, I don't
> have a case.

I would have said "tú" if I was forced to pick one, but I have
no idea how one decides which one is a prime and which
one isn't.

> > So the primes seem to fit English very well but
> > other languages not so well.
>
> Well, it fits English well in the sense that
> there are English expressions that do (sometimes)
> mean what is intended here (but it presumably
> fits Spanish in that way two, else some of these
> "primes" would clearly not be primes).  The
> problem is that all the English expressions are
> polysemous and it is hard to pick out the right
> one and be sure to use only it.

So part of the problem is that they don't manage to explain
their primes very well.

mu'o mi'e xorxes