Re: [lojban] Re: semantic primes can define anything

[John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>]

--- Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/27/06, John E Clifford
> <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > I have always thought the "opinion" part of
> > {jinvi} was peripheral in a sense;
> 
> Given the x4 of {jinvi} (the "grounds") it is
> hard to see how it
> could be peripheral.

Well, since opinions don't require evidence, I
never could get those two together.
> 
> > >  I can
> > > think (pensi) of pigs flying
> > > without opining (jinvi) that pigs fly.
> >
> > But apparently you can't pensi of pigs
> flying;
> > there is no place for propositional content.
> 
>   mi pensi lo nu lo xarju cu vofli
>   I think of an event of pigs flying.

But what do you think of it?  This always seems
elliptical to me.

> > Or
> > do you want that {pensi2} is for
> propositional
> > content (which would eliminate a raft of
> > problems)?
> 
> No, I think pensi is fine as it is, but that it
> is not for opinions.

I didn't say anything about opinions: I can think
content without necessarily affirming it (indeed,
the need for that other pattern is why I have
trouble with {jinvi} as opinion).

 
> > Yes; I think it has to be "something happens
> to
> > something."  But again, in the absence of
> more
> > cases it is hard to be sure.
> 
> I found this one, but I don't know if it's
> official:
> 
> X feels sad =
> X feels something
> sometimes a person thinks something like this:
> "something bad happened
>  if I didn't know that it happened I would say:
> 'I don't want it to happen'
>  I don't say this now because I know: 'I can't
> do anything'"
> because of this, this person feels something
> bad
> X feels something like this

That is official (as of 2004 when Goddard uses
it) and I missed it skimming my list. So yes
 
> So apparently things can HAPPEN without
> happening (explicitly)
> to something.
> 
But I wonder about the explicit/implicit divide
here.  They shouldn't allow it in careful work,
but if they don't then they have two possibly
different uses of "happen."  Hmmmm