Re: [lojban] Re: NMS: glosses and YOU

[John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>]

--- Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/28/06, John E Clifford
> <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >From what I have read, I gather that the
> usual
> > response in these kinds of cases is to claim
> > allolexy: that the manifestation of a prime
> may
> > be in different lexical items conditioned by
> the
> > situation.
> 
> According to this:
>
<http://www.une.edu.au/arts/LCL/disciplines/linguistics/Goddard_Ch1_2002.pdf>
> 
> "the term "allolexy" was coined to designate
> situations in which
> several different words or word-forms
> (allolexes) express a single
> meaning in complementary contexts."
> 
> "a claim of allolexy hinges entirely on a claim
> that the expressions
> which are supposed to be in an allolexical
> relationship do not differ
> in meaning in any paraphrasable way."
> 
> So, "tú" and "usted" are not really allolexes.
> They can both occur
> in the same contexts (unlike, for example "I"
> and "me" which occur
> in complementary contexts: in this case syntax
> forces the choice
> of which one to use, not semantics).
 
> > In the instant case, I assume that
> > YOU is represented by "tu" in informal
> situations
> > between intimates (and real or implied major
> > differences in rank) and "usted" elsewhere
> (and I
> > suppose there are other details I haven't
> > covered).
> 
> There is huge variation from place to place and
> even from
> person to person. Another major factor is age
> difference
> (for example, I would hardly ever use "usted"
> to address someone
> of about my age or younger). But in any case,
> both forms are
> always grammatical and the choice between them
> is not determined
> by syntax. Saying that they are allolexes is
> like saying that "he"
> and "she" are allolexes in English. They
> obviously differ in meaning
> in a paraphrasable way.
> 
> > This seems to me to be a bit of a
> > cop-out, but, if the conditions can really be
> > specified, is in line with Linguistics in
> other
> > areas.
> 
> The conditions for the choice between "he" and
> "she" are relatively
> much easier to specify than between "tú" and
> "usted". Does that make
> "he" and "she" allolexes for a "third person
> singular pronoun" meaning?

I am not sure how they handle this.  It is pretty
clear that the contexts involved need not be
merely syntactic (like "I" and "me") and they may
not even have to be semantic (like "he" and
"she," if these are allolexes of "third person
singular" (" I am thinking of one person.  I am
not that person.  You are not that person" or
some such thing).  So the degree of remoteness, a
very cultural concept, might well count.  On the
other hand, this is getting pretty attenuated
without some thorough theoretical frame, so I
keep coming back to the cop-out sense.