Final nails in the coffin

[Hugh O'Byrne <hobyrne@gmail.com>]

Wow.  I'll give you this:  You really do have some oratory skill.
That's *quite* a talent.  You did actually have be believing I was being
ineffective at communicating, for a while there.  But it _was_ slipping,
over time.

But as to your oratory skill:  With great power comes great responsibility.

Ahem.

Roll cameras.

In response to "ideas such as creating a useful, culture-neutral
communication system", clifford-j@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> It is not clear that anyone really wants this nor that it is a reason
> why someone learns Lojban
> (and it is even less clear that Lojban is culturally neutral in any
> relevant sense).

He also wrote:

> In addition to which, I didn't know you were interested in cultural
neutrality.

Wow.  That alone is enough to show your inattention and/or
dismissiveness of me.  But that's not even the kicker.  Wait for the kicker!

In response to my suggestion
> Google:
> Lojban "culturally neutral"
he quite thoroughly refuses to see any relavence in the results.  It's
clear he has put some time into writing this reply.

Is there anything else?  Hm, I guess not.  Only three nails will have to
do.  I'm satisfied with that.

So here's the kicker:  when I suggest a value he personally holds,
is not a value Lojban holds, he writes:

> See the discussion at the beginning of CLL

Ooh, such an official-sounding chastisement, coming from you.  "Pay
respect to the authorities!", the implication being that you are (or
speak for) an authority.  Am I over-dramatizing?  Sorry.  I'll stop now.

That was an *excellent* suggestion, thank you *so* *much* for that.  I
will indeed attend to the authorities.

(I can't believe I didn't see it before.)

Ahem.

Look at the CLL yourself!!!  On the very first page of text, only the
second bullet point, front and center:

* Lojban is designed to be neutral between cultures.

Clearly printed where it can be read not twenty seconds after opening
the front cover.  Have you ever seen that?  Did that ever register, in
your head?  Repeated usage of the term 'culture-neutrality', it never
rang a bell?  All that time you spent trying to tear me down, you never
had a nagging feeling?  For a person so vocal about the merits of the
status-quo, this is quite a glaring oversight, wouldn't you agree?

The first reference to even a *property* of the Latin alphabet
(uppercase letters) is two pages later, which is easily equivalent to an
underline or some such modifier on VS or RPA (*any* alphabet, for that
matter).  So that's not even tied to the Latin alphabet, if you have any
imagination at all.  The first explicit reference to the Latin alphabet
*itself* being specifically tied to Lojban is in the *next* *chapter*,
*nine* *pages* after the bullet point.  The explicit enumeration of the
details of the alphabet is in chapter *three*.  All this indicates that
the usage of the Latin alphabet in particular is definitely a secondary,
less significant point, when compared to that of culture-neutrality,
don't you agree?

Phew.  That *is* a load off.  I've learned my lesson, though, I will
keep the CLL much closer at hand from now on.  Shoulda done that from
the start.  But then, he might have been smart enough not to give me
more of those particular nails.  So it all works out in the end.

I was actually hoping for one of two outcomes:  Either, that I would
turn your way of thinking, or (realising that I may not be able to),
understand your insights and point of view and why they won't be turned.
 It's pretty clear that the first is never going to happen, I would
have been happy even with the second outcome, but it becomes
increasingly clear you have no insight to offer me.  Too bad.  I can
learn *more* from opposing viewpoints.

A major slip-up on your part, *oops*.  IMO, this, more than anything
else (and there is plenty else), invalidates your right to speak for the
Lojban community.  (The very first page!)  You have no power over me
now.  I have little regard for your opinion any more.  Jorge is my new
best friend here. :)

*sigh*  Persistence paid off.  A win for rationality.  Yay me.

I guess I've passed the hazing ritual.  Thanks... but not really...
Come on guys, couldn't you have told me?  That's not funnyyyy...  Ah
well.  It was a learning experience.  I guess I'm happy about that.  And
I lasted the distance, without losing my temper *too* much.  I'm a
little proud of that, but I'll try to keep my temper in check even
better next time.  Having been through this ordeal, I think I *can* do
that better now.  So.  Yes.  I'll call it a positive experience.

Jeez... how much does it pay, being a hazer?  That's an icky, icky job.
 Tough, too, when you come across someone like me, eh? :)  Oh well,
it's your choice.

Thanks for playing, it's been... something... go home now.

mi'e .xius.
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