Re: [lojban] Re: sign language in Lojban

[John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>]

Sorry; my sloppy, not yours: the undetdeveloped question is whether the syntax of ASL affects the
syntax of English written by fluent (better, native) users of ASL and, eventually, whether thees
differences at any level affect the metaphysical perceptions. (Looking for a long-buried book on
Labanotation, I came across one of Stokoe's papers in SIL or so on the ASL which clearly lays out
some major features of it particular grammar.)

--- Arika Okrent <arika@okrent.com> wrote:

> 
> > More interesting (and you say 
> > less devweloped) is
> > whether ASL has a syntax different from English, even Signed English and 
> > whether that might
> > influence writing even if the words used were ordinary English, not 
> > cheirography.
> 
> Whoa.  I usually try to limit my list responding playtime to once per day, but 
> I feel compelled to respond here because if I have somehow communicated that 
> the question of whether ASL syntax is different from English is not good and 
> settled, then I have completely failed in my capacity as sign language 
> spokesperson.
> 
> ASL syntax is totally different from English syntax.  However, when linguists 
> talk about ASL syntax, they use English glosses for the signs for the sake of 
> convenience.  Meaning I will write:
> 
> [MONEY]topic [I HAVE]neg.
> 'As for money, I don't have any
> 
> All caps are used to remind you that MONEY is just a label for the ASL sign 
> for "money"--you could just as well call it Zarcon74, but that wouldn't be as 
> convenient.  'topic' means the topicalization marker (an eyebrow raise/head 
> tilt) lasts for the duration of the articulaion of MONEY.  'neg' means a 
> negation marker (a head shake) lasts for the duration of the rest.  It's as if 
> I wrote Spanish like this:
> 
> NO HAVE[1st pers] NOTHING OF MONEY.
> 
> You could totally describe Spanish syntax using this type of notation.
> 
> Signed English wishes it were the flip side of this coin -- a way of speaking 
> English using ASL signs as glosses for the English words.  Except that it's 
> hapazardly executed -- usually performed simultaneously with speech, which 
> means a lot of important signs get dropped, which means the deaf people 
> watching it lose about 30% of the information, which means it's a horrible 
> bastard 'language' that has helped rob a generation of deaf kids of a good 
> education. 
> 
> -arika
> 
> ************
> Arika Okrent
> arika@okrent.com
> http://www.wickedoasis.org/arika
> 
> 
> 
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>