[lojban] natfe & talsa

["Jorge Llambías" <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On 9/21/07, Daniel Goetzmann <cestricu@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Two gismu questions:
> Have I understood correctly that natfe is not agentive (du'u in x1, no
> person) but in the sense of "The results of the experiments contradict the
> theory"?

Yes, although I think every time I have seen it used, it has been with
the incorrect meaning of "person x1 denies that x2 is true". I don't
think English "deny" is really used with the sense of {natfe}, so it
was a poor choice of keyword.

> I'm not sure about the meaning of talsa: Is it challenge/defy
> (German:herausfordern/fordern) (ji-)or is it challenge/question/dispute
> (German:bestreiten, bezweifeln, in Frage stellen)?

I've always understood it as the former, and that's how I translated it to
Spanish, but then that requires an action in x3, not a property:

"To call to engage in a contest, fight, or competition: challenged me
to a game of chess.
To invite with defiance; dare: challenged him to contradict her. See
Synonyms at defy."

The second sense:
 "To take exception to; call into question; dispute: a book that
challenges established beliefs."

fits better with a poperty in x3, but not so well with requiring a
person in x1.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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