Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership

2014-09-11 0:42 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>:

On 9/10/2014 1:51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:

I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if not
hundreds of conlangs whose usage would have spread if people had
stopped fiddling with the language design.

He won't. I can confirm his words.
I've got a lot of people from Russian group who immediately stopped
learning Lojban when they learnt that CLL was no longer valid.

With regret I have to acknowledge that Lojbab's task of creating a
stable language failed when the not well thought out change called
"xorlo" invalidated the refgram. May be it's still not too late to go
back to pre-xorlo

If xorxes is correct then the refgram was not invalidated so much as made incomplete. But I can't say, since I never really understood xorlo.

Still, you are the first person I have seen to call "xorlo" "not well thought out". xorlo was by far the most thought about and discussed change proposal ever made to the language. If it was "not well thought out" it speaks poorly for the *possibility* of there being a well-thought-out change

It's not well thought out in the sense that nowadays most people use {lo} and use {le} quite less. The well thought out change would be clearly understanding what is wanted and then adapting it to what is already described in CLL.

Thus e.g. {le} could be redefined as what is {lo} in post-xorlo. Thus most examples in CLL would be preserved.

Some use {le} in referential sense today (which is needed more seldom). However, for that a better reform would just suggest a new cmavo rather than damaging the usage of existing cmavo.

All these change to the basic and mostly used cmavo in the language invalidated CLL and diverted a lot of people from Lojban when they wanted to delve into it deeper.

In fact their first phrases like {mi nelci le nu limna} are always corrected by "experts" which confuses newbies.

If there was a new corrected CLL (that you can download and buy in paper form) there would be no such problems.

But nobody provided a corrected refgram, a corrected tutorial (there is a new one but nitcion's is still online and continues to confuse people).

That's why the fears of ruining the language because of changes are now confirmed after just one single change.

I don't know how many people already bought CLL but probably the new one will be ready soon so that most pressing changes can be quickly introduced and side issues can be ignored letting the usage and logic decide afterwards.

Yet another example is Loglan.

Which of course is the primary language effort that I know about. My knowledge of the impact of changes on other languages came second hand from people commenting on their reaction to changes in TLI Loglan and in Lojban.

The history repeats itself.

That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to the
final destruction of the language as it happened to other conlangs.

Changes to gismu damn near killed Loglan in the early 1980s, and merely tweaking something like 100 rafsi in 1994 when they were not yet officially baselined and no one to my knowledge had systematically tried to memorize them (other than myself) caused an enormously strong protest such that only a fraction of the proposals were accepted MERELY on account of usage.

It was discussed back in the 90s, but is it in CLL? I can't find a
way to search CLL online (-- there must be one, but googling doesn't
bring it up). It's not in CLL Ch 13 where po'o is introduced.

I found And himself discussing it with xorxes in Feb 1996.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/lojban/po$27onai/lojban/4quvrqL8Ops/J_8GPjzhr3YJ

That may have been too late to get into CLL, especially since the discussion seems to have been about translating the idiosyncrasies of the English word(s) "only" and "except", rather than a discussion of what was needed in Lojban on its own.

I went to the humungous effort of looking kibro and di'ai up in
jbovlaste. To find jbovlaste, one googles "jbovlaste". Or, even
quicker, google "jbovlaste kibro" and you get the answer in one
step. For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made an android
jbovlaste app -- it's excellent!

Huh?

%^)

lojbab

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