Re: [lojban] Re: C-sets

Both. C-sets get very short shrift in CLL, a mere mention of lV'e in the gadri section and little else expository, even in MEX. And no uses them in the language, partly because of the CLL situation and partly because of the belief that they are virtually uselss (i.e., can only be used as in set theory). As for useful places to look for information about L-sets, the various things Google supplies (under Lesniewski and mereology) tend to be rather technical and wrapped up in the particularities of the system (and related systems) rather than the matters of interest to Lojban. You can eventually work out the good stuff but it is a bit uphill. I can't find a popular or directed discussion anywhere -- of L-sets or related notions.

On Sunday, September 14, 2014 9:17 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sunday, September 14, 2014 9:12 AM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

I may be missing something. When you say "used more", do you mean at the language design level or at the speaker level. Could I, as a speaker, distinguish between C-sets and L-sets in my speech as lojban is now?

Also, do you have any references for someone who would like to learn more about L-sets, preferably accessible by a computer science graduate student who has studied neither logic nor linguistics in depth?

On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 9:15 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

More common in the world at large. Ordinarily, if you say "set', it is assumed you mean C-sets (even if your hearer knows there are other kinds). In Lojban, however, C-sets have always occupied a secondary place, behind whatever {lo broda} and the like referred to (and those have been so truly odd things at times). The reasoning was that, since in set theory C-sets were used in a way that would not do what was needed, they could not be used in Lojban to do what was needed. It turns out this is not true but does require some added work, so we stick with L-sets (or equivalent) which do things more easily and are finally respectable entities. My point is just that C-sets can do somethings a bit more tidily that L-sets and should get used more in Lojban.

On Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:30 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:

The draft at that link seems to treat C-sets as the more common, standard set theory kind, with L-sets as the less common kind, just the opposite of John's post above, AIUI.

stevo

On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne <dersaidin@gmail.com> wrote:
Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to understand this:
http://pckipo.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/c-sets-and-l-sets-draft.html

PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is showing/explaining some examples of these different kinds of sets in Lojban. This would be quite helpful if you want to promote usage.

Andrew / DerSaidin
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