Re: [lojban] Logos Initiative

2014-09-16 0:49 GMT+04:00 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:

On Monday, September 15, 2014 2:44:35 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:

2014-09-15 22:22 GMT+04:00 TR NS <tran...@gmail.com>:

It is not going to stay in this state because there are people that are working on it.
Robin is working on a new CLL, I'm working on a new dictionary, a new tutorial and on Lojban Expertise Test.

I think that just helps make my point. The more you "complete" the current language the more resistant to change it becomes.

Completing doesn't mean changing.

You just add more details that previously didnt pay attention at.

Who's going going to look fondly on changes to a language on which they've dedicated many man hours to pass the "Expertise Test"?

I dont understand which changes you are talking about.

I can't even see what is proposed. While monitoring IRC i wrote out all additions and explanations i found important or intetersting.

Adding them to a new CLL won't pose any problem for me once there is a simple syntax. I've been working on a CLL in the wiki but since robin is also working on CLL i changed to other important tasks.

If this is the only reason you want a new language I can only suggest that you join existing projects in Lojban.

I feel you have missed the whole second half of "something in between".

Loglan is mostly broken. E.g. it doesnt have mekso.
As for the dictionary most of its lujvo are in fact cimjvo. You can take Core wordnet and translate it instead.

Maybe I should not use the word "synthesis" I don't meant to take the two languages and pour them into one bowl and **poof** new language.

There is no way Loglan can be united with Lojban because there is almost nothing to take from Loglan that would pose any interest from Lojbanic point of view.

I don't see how you can say that when the whole language is a "take" on Loglan.

Now Lojban is much more complete and freed of most of drawbacks of Loglan.

I dont see how a child can be crossed with its father.

I've seen only a couple of fu'ivla worth taking from Loglan.

What words exactly you have in mind worth borrowing from Loglan apart from cimjvo?

Or if it's a cimjvo why borrowing it from Loglan?

And can it actually ever be complete? And doesn't the whole notion of "completion" work against the notion of change?

It doesn't. Describing a language in more details doesnt necessarily invalidate old usage.

But as for xorlo I dont like it not because of grammatical or semantical reasons but because of paedagogical reasons when a change wasn't confirmed in fundamental documents.

Other than that I can't see any problems in Lojban except that many people seem to be lazy. We'll have to deal with that.

That's an interesting thing to say. Do you think the problems I see with it are because I am just lazy? And how do you propose to deal with that?

I think you just read a thread where people were screaming but not doing any actual work and drew pessimistic conclusions.

Luckily, not all of us are like that.

Take Lojbab. He made a huge amount of work to not let Loglan/Lojban project die.

This doesn't mean people must spend their whole life on that (and this project is almost a hobbie for most of us).

There've been other attempts to create forks of loglangs like reviving guaspi community or xorban.
There've been voksigid and lojsk.
All these projects died.

I think mostly due to the same reasons: the lack of tutorials, a reference grammar as complete as CLL and a rich dictionary.
And of course compared to Lojban they provided no immediate advantages. And no corpus of texts.

The same could be said of Lojban when it was started.

Lojban never died.

Documenting the completions that xorxes and selpa'i would recommend is a good idea, but it's clear to me it would not change much here.

How's that? This is the goal of this community.

In so far as their proposals are adoptable, they cannot change much.

Logla is a means to take on larger potential changes. Things like simplified connectives (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ), a simplified rafsi system, even re-consideration of the morphology.

di'ai

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