gismu list proposals, responses

[lojbab@grebyn.com (Logical Language Group)]

I have processed most of these now, except for long lists of xrefs.
Following are responses on those of your proposals that I did not essentially
incorporate as you suggested.  Unfortunately, I didn't start this till after
I had processed a few of the changes, so I don't explicitly respond on kubli,
which I resolved, but differently from what you suggested in your comments.

lojbab

dargu:  are x2 and x3 (endpoints) necessary, given x4 as route?  (also
naxle, etc.)
 
yes - 1) in practice, route may be specified either as an interval or a via
 
2) the from/to is a focus and may not actually be the endpoints.  I95 is
a road from here to NYC, but the route place would not necessarily
indicate that these two points are the focus, since the road goes beyond
DC and NYC.
 
3)like birthday with jbena, this is a commonly enough used relationship
for dargu as to warrant including it.
 
4) cf. klama, for which the route, if expressed as an ordered set would
theoretically make origina and destination unnecessary.
 
jalra: for "cockroach" read "cockroach/termite"
jalra: rationale: such are the facts; surprise!
 
I checked, and not really.  Cockroaches are an order to themselves, but
are sometimes categorized as part of a super order Orthopterans whose
main order is Orthoptera:  grasshoppers/crickets.  There are one or two
other orders in the greater order, none of which are termites.  However,
termites are considered next most distant, decended from a roachlike
ancestor.  I made a change to include all of the above in jalra, but
wasn't too happy about it.  Lojban gismu are supposed to represent
popular knowledge as well as scientific categorization.  Roaches are a
particular kind of pest, and the broader jalra means that we need a
lujvo for that previously clear concept.  I am convinced primarily
because we don't have gismu for locust/grasshopper, which are probably
equally important in some cultures.
 
But this makes me want to look at the remining insects and make sure
they are all covered somehow in a subcategory if they are commonly
recognized enough to be talked about.  Specific problem I see:  beetles
and true 'bugs'.
 
Semi-related issue is a word for clam/oyster/shellfish and snail.  Our broad
definition of shell isn't especially useful for animal life that is often
distinguished by the shell.
 
kagni: interchange x2 and x3 places
kagni: rationale: purpose more useful than charterer?
 
Possibly, but not necessarily:  the megacorporations like the Japanese
have are better identified by nationality of charter than by a specific
purpose, and indeed most discussion of companies in an international
environment will probably have the counortant.  In
general, I think that tools and apparati are going to tend to have the
most complex place structures, and they probably should.
 
sakci: add "fluid x2" and renumber existing x2 and x3
sakci: for "x1" read "x1 ( in doubt.
 
pambe:  Your rewording makes it so vague, no one will know what to do
with it, and could easily be covered as a trivial lujvo -
pressure-cause.  I agree with the commenter that said the change was
going too far.  I added injector as a secondary term, and put in
pressure gradient in the definition, but such a gradient still requires
a from and a to place, and the method by which that gradient is achieved
(the x5 'tool' part of the apparatus) also seems vital.  Not all pumps
can pump all fiuids, so the fluid place also seems important.  In
general, I think that tools and apparati are going to tend to have the
most complex place structures, and they probably should.
 
sakci: add "fluid x2" and renumber existing x2 and x3
sakci: for "x1" read "x1 (agent)"
sakci: rationale: sucking requires something which is sucked
 
Yes and no.  I certainly don't see x1 as clearly agentive, but there is
confusion between x1 and x2.  I'm rewording, but not as requested.
 
salta: "x1 is a quantity of..." can't be mass; "set ext." is not used
salta: for "x1 (mass)" read "x1"; for "x2 (set ext.)" read "x2"
sanso: for "x3 (set ext.)" read "x3"
 
Don't understand - these are not the only occurances of set. ext. vs.
mass for components of a mixture, and I don't see what is distinct about
them.  Among the things we were trying to cover with this mass/set
extent, is the possibility of an incomplete specification of
ingredients.  The wording should be consistent among all of them.
 
sinxa: for "sign/symbol" read "sign/symbol/signal"
 
changed this one - old x2 and x4 represented two different but
overlapping meanings:  a sign for something and a signal urging
something
 
skoto: delete "(metaphor: Gaelic/Celtic)"
skoto: rationale: use le'avla for "Gaelic" (includes Eire) and "Celtic" (includes Wales, Brittany, etc.)
 
Disagree.  We want the broader meaning, if necessary at the expense of
the narrower one; cf. your comment on polno.  Scotland really didn't
meet the criteria, but JCB had it as a prim.  Note also that per my
dictionary, Gaelic non-technically refers to highland Scottish unless
specifically prefixed by "Irish".  Now, whether extending Gaelic to
Celtic is appropriate, I'm not sure.  I would not have qualms with
Irish = west-skoto Scottish = north-skoto Welsh = south-skoto
Brittany = fraso-skoto
 
traji: note: need to fix serai, terai, verai in cmavo list
traji: reorder to x1-x4-x2-x3 to agree with zmadu and mleca
 
No. traji is related to mutce and milxe, not to zmadu and mleca Also,
per your extended comment, x4 may be a range, not necessarily a set.
 
zgike: delete "performed by x3"
zgike: rationale: music need not be performed; use cusku or tigni
 
actually, I better accept the argument that music need not be
'composed', and removed x2.  It isn't music until it is realized.  I
think that the performer need not be agentive (i.e. naturally occuring
musical sounds), and worded it as performed/produced.
 
 
xatsi, xexso, petso, femti: change "1x10**" to "1E" or "1e"
 
Not sure why these in particular - you didn't ask to change others.
 

Note that in some cases, a change you suggested was impossible per the
LogFlash formatting of the file, and comments were added beyond column 160,
which will in some way or another be merged with the rest of the text
once I separate the LogFlash files from the dictionary files.

---
On xrefs.  Unfortunately the xrefs have proved to be popular among the community
for a variety of reasons, not all of which are mutually compatible.  Veijo's
xrefs, for example, included some rather nebulous ties of meaning - sometimes
good, but they make the xrefs act as a word-net type of thesaurus.  Unfortunately
the list he came up with is far too incomplete for that.  Others seem to
want to use the xrefs similarly, to help them find the word they want, given
that they have found a related word.  None of this was my original intent,
which was to use contrast in the place structures to suggest what the (unwritten) differences of meaning between some rather closely related gismu are; e.g.
a reference from klama to cliva might cause someone to note that the two
are similar in place struccture.

UNfortunatley, xrefs were added haphazrdly, and no longer are limited to thid
meaning funtionc.  This probably also means that the cf. abbrevaiation isn't
as appropriate as q.v. or some other latinate that I  don't know very well.
I'm not sure that we can practically sort them out without delaying things
too much.  I will do what I can to the post-LogFlash files, when it will be
easier, and probably go to q.v. eventually as more accurate.  Eventually, 
I see the cross references NOT as a basis of a thesausrus, but as the basis of
one of those little subnotes that I like in the Webster's New World
Dictionary that I've used, that gives several related synonyms and a comparative discussion of the semantics of the terms, to indicate which is used when.
That will be great to have for Lojban, but probably not till the 2nd edition
will it be possible.

lojbab