Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai

[Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>]

la nitcion cusku di'e

> Oh, pity ye the Nick, who is supposed to cough up a reading list on diachronic
> functionalism (cedra farvi ke terpli ciksi ke bauske) or grammaticalisation
> (gervlabi'o pruce) by the end of the month, and hasn't even started, never
> mind completing Hamlet in Klingon or polishing off the jvoste...

mi do kecti doi nitcion le nu do kafke bilga
i pau do ba kafke le tertcidu liste ma

[...]
> =slots that allow object/event, while others only allow one type, and I
> =don't see any rule being followed. For example, le se spuda and le se nelci
[...]

> There's a rule being followed somewhere in there, and in fact we had the
> discussion towards the end of last year (you were with us back then, yes?)

Yes, but I probably wasn't reading everything back then. I think this is
stored somewhere in the ftp, I'll have a look.

> There *are* predications where object/event does *not* imply sumti raising,
> but both object and event are legitimate arguments; the semantics of the
> predicates are like that.

Is there any way to tell which are those predications, other than divine
inspiration?  :)

> An excellent insight of the Lojban design team,
> not to read in raising everywhere. Personally, I'm irritated that simlu
> is not treated as raising, when "seem" is one of the examples of raising
> that keeps coming up in the textbooks, but never mind.

From the definition, it looks like it is thus treated. There is actually
one separate gismu for each of the meanings:

simlu: x1 seems to have proprerty x2
simsa: x1 seems (is similar to) x2

(I now recall that in our irc conversation I used {gleki simsa} when I meant
{gleki simlu},  oh well)

But in general, how can you tell when an object is acceptable or not?
Why is {mi nelci do} acceptable, but {do pluka mi} illegal raising?

> I myself use jai obsessively (when I do use Lojban ;(

I think I have never used it, although I do use tu'a liberally. {jai} has
the advantage of beign a single syllable, maybe I should start using it.

> --- it did even pop up in my IRC the other week, and I hope I was being
> logged); but I remain to be convinced that it will take hold in the speech
> community.

The speech community uses it obsessively. From the telephone conversation
during Logfest, I'd say that for the moment you're the only member.
(I was very impressed, btw, I hope I can get to half that level of fluency,
that was a great incentive.)

Jorge