Re: general response on needing books

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>]

la xorxes. cusku di'e

> > For example:
> >
> >         mi djuno le du'u lo cukta cu blanu
> >         I know that there is a book that is blue.
> >
> >         da poi cukta zo'u mi djuno le du'u da blanu
> >         There is a book such that I know it is blue.
> >
> > Different claims, both with realis subordinate clauses.
> > (In the second one I have to know which book, in the first one I
> > may or may not know.)

> Are you *sure*? I agree there isn't an irrealis element
> (assuming djuno is like 'know' rather than 'believe')
> but your two examples (in both Eng. & Loj) seem to me
> to mean the same thing.

Not at all.  Consider Quine's two examples:

1)      I know that '(Ex) x is a spy'
        mi djuno le du'u da -spy
        I know that there are spies (at least one).

2)      (Ex) I know that 'x is a spy'
        da poi -spy zo'u mi djuno le du'u da -spy
        There is someone I know to be a spy.

((Ex) is existential quantification, of course.)
Both are realis, but there is a fundamental difference: for most of us,
Example 1 is true and Example 2 is false.

--
John Cowan              sharing account <lojbab@access.digex.net> for now
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.