Re: Way to go?

["Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@lojban.org>]

At 12:03 PM 01/26/2000 -0800, Joirin Couwe wrote:
>I think my mail is probably FAQ, but haven't seen
>that. I have mixed two different topics, sorry for
>that. The first is request for guidance how to learn
>and the second one is need for information about
>status of electronic resources (and hopefully polite
>complaints).
>
>So could people recommend some (tested:) good ways to
>learn lojban?
>
>1) What is the material I should dig?
>
>I did first bump into
>http://www.animal.helsinki.fi/lojftp/draft-textbook/lesson02
>.
>I did print it and I have started to study.
>
>Then I found
>ftp://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/pub/lojban/draft-textbook/lesson02

Those two are essentially the same site.  "xiron" has been superseded by 
"animal" for reasons local to the Finland site manager, but most sites 
still point to xiron.  The "lojftp" means that the particular file is a 
mirror of the main archive at www.lojban.org

>I made comparison and found no differences in content,
>other was just wrapped into HTML and <XMP>, probably
>just saved in Microsoft Explorer.
>
>In the end I browsed
>http://www.animal.helsinki.fi/lojban/refgr_f/refgr.html
>what seems to be a little bit similar to
>draft-textbook lessons, but not quite the same.

The reference grammar is quite different from the draft textbook (and was 
written by a different person).  However, chapter 2 of the reference 
grammar is a rewritten version of older material.

>What should I read? Or should I by the book at once,
>and concentrate on it?

If you are seriously studying the language, then you will need the 
reference grammar book at some point not too far off.  It is in effect our 
"bible".  The draft textbook lessons, written some 10 years ago, were an 
attempt to teach, but people found it less useful than I intended.  It is 
at a lower level than the reference grammar, though, so some may find it 
easier to understand for what it covers.

Many people now starting off are using Robin Turner's introductory article 
and lessons - start at:

http://neptune.spaceports.com/~words/lojban.html

and after reading it, follow the links to the first 7 lessons of his course.

Chapter 2 of the reference grammar is the next more sophisticated language 
introduction.  You may also find on the Lojban sites references to a 
"Lojban minilesson" and a "diagrammed summary of the language".  These are 
also worth looking at, and were combined into the reference grammar chapter.

The textbook is reasonably good as a follow-on to these introductions, but 
does not cover the whole language, and being 10 years old has a small 
number of obsolescence errors.

The reference grammar is comprehensive and good, but may be hard for a 
newcomer to jump right into.  The book version is especially useful because 
it has an extensive index.

>2) What is the list I should use?
>
>There is still few confusing details, like this
>mailing list I'm using now compared what
>http://www.animal.helsinki.fi/lojftp/roadmap.html
>recommends: "To subscribe, send a message
>containing 'subscribe lojban Firstname Lastname' to
><listserv@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>. " So what is this
>lojban@onelist.com for?

The columbia list is dead, but is still around on a lot of older Lojban web 
sites as well as elsewhere on the net.  We moved Lojban List to "onelist" 
because the columbia site was going to stop offering listserve capability, 
but it is the same list with the same core of subscribers.  You can 
technically still subscribe to the old list, but I send you a message 
telling you to subscribe to the onelist as soon as I notice it, and no one 
posts to that list anymore.

There is now also a second email list on onelist for posting only in 
Lojban.  the keyword is "jbosnu" instead of "lojban"

>===
>
>Actually, now I was surfing addresses for this mail I
>did notice something interesting at
>ftp://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/pub/lojban/lojban-list/
>directory. The FAQ!
>
>Being dated 'Dec 7, 1995' I assume it contains quite a
>few errors, just because time has passed.

Yes, it has errors, but not too many.

>3) Is there any plans to "update everything on the
>net" :)?

Yes.

>How about updating, possibly rewriting, www.lojban.org
>pages and the FAQ? I would like to see it being
>written for the people starting up the language -
>veterans know where to surf anyway :).
>
>In any case, I would like to see clear separation of
>outdated material and new, correct material. That
>could be basic page with same structure as before -
>page with links like:
>
>* Reasonable new and usable stuff
>* Archives
>   * Reasonable usable little bit older stuff
>   * Archived memories
>     * email lists
>     * word lists
>     * web pages
>     * other archives
>
>Now it's very hard to know what's valid now and what I
>should look when I want to know where have we came?

As a matter of fact, this is being done, though not quite along the lines 
of what you say, though I will be moving obsolete stuff to a separate 
directory.  Other than net addresses, not much is *totally* obsolete unless 
it is more than 11 years old - the language has been stable that long, and 
older stuff was replaced by newer versions long ago.

I will be uploading and announcing a major revision to the www.lojban.org 
website within a day or two, as I am spending a lot of time checking and 
resolving old links.  I'm working on the last file now, the roadmap you 
mentioned, but it is the biggest.

>4) Are LogFests still held?

Yes.  Still at my house in Fairfax VA.  We have not set the date for this 
year's meeting yet, but it will probably be in July or August.

>Ps. I have already many questions I have wondered, but
>I'm saving those until I know I'm not questionating
>things which are decades old :).

The stuff you are questioning is not decades old in the first place, and 
since the language hasn't had many significant changes in 10 years or so 
(most changes have been additions), answers to questions will largely be 
the same now as they were then (maybe fewer "I don't knows").

lojbab

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.