Re: [lojban] RECORD: containers

["Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@hotmail.com>]

la pycyn cusku di'e

>I skip over the problem (for which lb has no better solution
>than English) of internal and external negations -- that this is
>a bottle but not one containing something, and simply say
>that, given we do acknowledge that ta is a bottle

This is the point. If we take the place structures seriously,
ta is actually being a botpi only when it contains something,
a side effect of the inflated place structures. In English a
bottle is a bottle independently of whether it contains
something or not. In Lojban {botpi} is a relationship between
two objects, at least in theory. In practice we will probably
use it as if it only applied to one object when it suits us.
There is no problem at all in English as far as I can see,
since an English bottle can be empty and remain "bottling",
or being bottle. In Lojban, when there are no contents the
object ceases the actual bottling until it contains something
again. It continues to be a potential bottler, of course, but
not an actual one. Just like a potential goer is not an actual
goer unless it is going somewhere.

>and being
>good Griceans, we admit that not containing anything *of
>relevance to the present discussion* is pretty much what we
>mean by "empty" -- air, Coke dregs, a little water from the
>washing up (including minute amounts of soap), and
>mosquito turds don't count.

I absolutely agree with that. What I'm saying is that when
the bottle is empty of relevant stuff, it is not in a
botpi relationship with anything, and thus is not properly
an actual botpi. (I insist that it remains as a potential
botpi, of course.)

>Even in a logical language, language ain't logic.

So we are already giving up on predicate calculus?
It may come to that in the end, but let us at least
try for it, no?

co'o mi'e xorxes

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