Re: [lojban] Random lojban questions/annoyances.

["Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@hotmail.com>]

la camgusmis cusku di'e

>  djuno jun     ju'o know
>                     x1 knows fact(s) x2 (du'u) about subject x3 by
>                     epistemology x4
>
> Now, since this is, as far as I am aware, the only official definition, we 
> need
> to use and english dictionary for 'knows':

Not really, but consulting dictionaries can certainly help
sometimes.

> 1a (1): to perceive directly: have direct cognition of
> 1a (2): to have understanding of <importance of knowing oneself>
> 1a (3): to recognize the nature of: DISCERN

These would rarely be {djuno} in Lojban. {lifri} or {jimpe} seem
more appropriate.

> 1b (1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known
> 1b (2): to be acquainted or familiar with
> 1b (3): to have experience of

These are definitely not {djuno} but {se slabu}.

> 2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of: be convinced or certain
>      of

Yes, this one is Lojban {djuno}.

> 2b: to have a practical understanding of <knows how to write>

{kakne}, {certu}, {stati}.

> 3 archaic: to have sexual intercourse with

{gletu}.

> ~ vi
> 1: to have knowledge

This one can be {djuno}.

> 2: to be or become cognizant

More like {sanji}.

> The only place where truth is discussed is 2a, where _Webster's_, for 
> crying
> out loud, states that "to be aware of the truth or factuality of" _is_
> _equivalent_ _to_ "be convinced or certain of".

Dictionaries don't work like that, it doesn't state that they are
equivalent. We know that they are not equivalent because
"John is absloutely convinced that Robin lives in Australia"
works where "John knows that Robin lives in Australia" doesn't.

> .o'onai
>
> If y'all are going to insist that djuno makes a distinction between "to be
> aware of the truth or factuality of" and "be convinced or certain of",
> you're going to need to rewrite the definiton, because that is _not_
> what the current definition says.

Actually Lojbab argued more or less what you are arguing the
last time this was discussed. Who knows, maybe Lojban usage will
depart from English usage in this regard and settle on your
preferred definition.

co'o mi'e xorxes


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