[lojban] Re: loi preti be fi lo nincli zo'u tu'e

[Martin Bays <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 09:04:53PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 07:36:21PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:46:04PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 01:33:18PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote:
>
> > To be honest, I think the best solution is to stick with bridi, and define
> > some nice lujvo.
>
> cecyvi'u
>
> <grin>
>
> > And then if necessary, mexify them with na'u. Have you seen this
> > translation by Nick Nicholas of the start of an abstract algebra
> > book -
> > 	http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/algebra
> > 		- which goes some way towards doing that?
>
> I haven't yet read it.  .u'uro'a
>
> I'll do that now.
>
> Hmmm.  Nick seems to be using selcmipi'i for intersect, which is, umm,
> insane, IMO.  I prefer cec to selcmi, but even ignoring that, pi'i
> doesn't even slightly match my concept if intersection; cecysi'umi'u is
> my first try.

I have a feeling x fa'u + are sometimes used for intersection fa'u union
when considering them as abstract algebraic operations - but I agree it's
not intuitive. Anyway, I'd say selcmipi'i should be the Cartesian product.

How about kaxselcmi and vlinyselcmi? Just an idea. I'm not sure I like
using cec, by the way - to me it suggests finite sets, when we need a more
general term.

Actually, I've just discovered that jo'e, ku'a and pi'u have rafsi (jom,
kuz and piv) - though I'm not sure what to stick them to. I guess selcmi
would have to do.

Now we need 2 or 3 versions of the operations - one for the
union/intersection of two sets, one for countably many, and one over an
arbitrary set. NN gives lujvo for the first two (selcmipi'i and
sosyselcmipi'i). We might just want to have the second, since the first is
a special case. The third, continuing the pattern, would I guess be
sorselcmipi'i, with place structure "x1 is the intersection over x2" -
i.e.
	go ca'e ko'a sorselcmipi'i ko'e
		gi ro da zo'u
			go da cmima ko'a gi da cmima ro de poi cmima ko'e

...I think. Sim. for union. With that it *should* be possible to do all
the basic set theory you want, though maybe not always elegantly. Any
idea, for example, how best to translate ('scuse amateur ASCII graphics):

	 |   |
	 |   | A
	  \_/   i
	i in I

("The union over I of A sub i"), which is the same as

	 |   |
	 |   | {A  : i in I}
	  \_/    i

where that big union is my sorselcmipi'i (or sorkuzselcmi)? Do we need yet
another lujvo, or is there a nice translation of that set? I don't think
{lu'i .abu boi xi .ibu poi .ibu cmima tau .ibu} really works.

Clues, anyone?

> > > > > I would like to translate something mathematical and
> > > > > substantial; got any contacts that would like to let us release
> > > > > a translated paper?
> > > >
> > > > Ummm... I guess I could ask someone. Can you be more specific? Do
> > > > you just want some random high-powered maths research?
> > >
> > > What I'd *really* like to do would be a textbook (or, more likely, a
> > > portion thereof), precisely for reasons of comprehensibility.
> > >
> >
> > That's actually a very good idea. What kind of subject do you want? I
> > (very very vaguely) know the author of a nice+simple complex analysis
> > book, which should be suited to mex. Or else name a subject and I'll
> > see what I can do.
>
> Complex analysis would be cool.  I'd also enjoy cryptography, set
> theory, or subatomic physics.  Game theory would be hella cool.
>
> Hmmm...
>
> My old Cryptography professor might actually be willing to let me do his
> book.  I was supremely fortunate to have
> http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/~ajmeneze/ as my crypto prof.
>
> Unfortunately, Handbook of Applied is already freely available, which
> defeats part of my idea (translate something that people wouldn't be
> able to easily get in English, at least without paying, and might
> actually want).
>

I'm afraid I don't have any tutors/lecturers who've written anything
especially cool... but if the crypto thing doesn't work out give me a
shout and I'll see if I can do 'owt.

---

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:>8*0\j" o'u" v" e'i" v".neta"^q>
       ;z,[;  >       >       ^