RE: [lojban] Digest Number 1753

["And Rosta" <a.rosta@lycos.co.uk>]

Probably this reply shdn't go to Lojban list, but since it is in
reply to a message on that list, here goes:

Nick:
> >    From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@lycos.co.uk>
> >Subject: Re: emotions
> >
> >  > No one has been hurt, so far as I know, by "le du'u"/"le se du'u" and
> >>  "la'edi'u" being longer than one syllable, and I can imagine few things
> >>  that need a shorter one
> >
> >I am an atypical lojbanist, but I have been hugely bugged by "lo'edu'u"
> >and xorxes by "la'edi'u". They don't actively harm me, but it pains me
> >to use them, to the extent that it poisons my pleasure in using Lojban 
> >It wouldn't surprise me if future newcomers to Lojban who had the sort
> >of refined linguistic sensibilities one observes in the likes of
> >xorxes would be similarly pained 
> >
> >Not that I don't think it is too late to change Lojban. Lojban is far
> >into the "take it ot leave it" stage, and can no longer be adapted to
> >suit the tastes or even the needs of its users 
> 
> While this is mostly true, there's a non-zero chance you'll get {laudu'u} 

I can see how that would be a big help in making more palatable your
heroic efforts to salvage the gadri system.
 
> la'edi'u, OTOH, I don't see as having a snowball's chance, because 
> the point that it is compositional is so important. (We need to 
> police the la'e/lu'e distinction.) We can consider an exptal cmavo 
> equivalent to just la'edi'u,  but I would be prejudiced against it. 
> And I gotta say, I have not felt la'edi'u to be overlong, the way I 
> would feel lo'edu'u --- I think because la'edi'u is its own NP, and 
> lo'edu'u a determiner 

Fair enough. But, setting aside the frequency of {di'e} due to the
way x2 of cusku is defined, {la'edi'u} is way the most frequent
phrase containing an anaphor of the di'e series. Every time one
utters those four syllables one is liable to think "If only the
di'e series had been defined in terms of utterance meanings, we
could dispense with two of these syllables (and if {dei} had been
assigned to the most frequent of the series, we could reduce
the phrase from four syllables to one)". This may or may not have
a snowball's chance of being changed -- if it did change, it would
be for the better, but still just a drop in the ocean -- but you
must have had the experience of using a tool or a piece of software
whose poor design causes you wasted effort, & the sense of impotent
rage that that engenders. 

> Like I say, And, the vote on lau/toi/foi is not out yet; there is a 
> non-zero chance they'll be reallocated. (Although I admit the 
> pertinent shepherd is not as enthusiastic about this as I am...) 
> Let's wait till the vote 

Is this the lerfu shepherd or gadri shepherd? (I am 37 messages
behind on BPFK.)

> *sigh* I doubt Lojban will *ever* satisfy you as a formal object.) 

It is certain that it never will. -- Which is in a way a good thing
for the fundamentalist/conservative camp: since no conservative--
progressive compromise will ever satisfy the progressives, there is
no point in the progressives striving to deny the conservatives the
language they want.

--And.