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[lojban] Re: loglan/lojban masses/sets
On May 10, 2004, at 4:47 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
At 11:24 AM 5/10/04 -0700, Jorge "Llambías" wrote:
Loglan "lea", the gigantic individual, is probably
Lojban's {piro loi}, the whole mass.
'lea' is definitely not an indiviual, but refers to the entire
collection of discrete objects. Whereas in earlier times JCB
liked to refer to 'lo' as 'the mass of all x". Current usage
corresponds to E 'some' or 'a', the former for material thought of
in the mass, such as 'water', 'milk', 'sugar'. 'rice', the latter when
any incidence fulfils the requirement as in 'lo taksi', a taxi
Not recalling how things have evolved in the last 15 years, but lea,
when
first added to TLI Loglan, meant EXACTLY Lojban "ro lo ro", and was
used
for universal claims about veridical entities. Lojban lo was in a
sense
back derived from lea, once pc explained what "veridical" meant.
'lo ro' would not now be considered correct Loglan.
Loglan "lo" is what And once described as "the myopic
singularizer", all the individuals considered as one
individual (not added together as with "lea" but all
superposed into one). For a long time I used Lojban
{lo'e} for this as a generic. But now I am using Lojban
{lo}, thus returning to the origins in some sense.
Loglan does not have anything equivalent to {lo}
as {su'o lo}. For that it simply uses the equivalent
of {su'o broda}.
ba jia broda, IIRC (Lojban equivalent "da poi broda") was the closest
TLI
Loglan equivalent to lo broda.
ba ji broda has largely fallen into disuse in favour of 'lo'
As far as I know it doesn't have anything like lo'e/le'e
either.
It has loe which of used at various times for both Lojban lo'e and le'e
Comparing our languages we have stuck with the articles/descriptors.
In particular, I wonder how can I translate from Loglan to Lojban
{Focu mrenu} --- a quartet of persons? Is it {lo'i vo prenu} or
something else?
With my current understanding, I'd say {lo vo prenu} for the generic
case (as in "this is meant to be played by a quartet") or
{le vo prenu} if you have a particular quartet in mind.
prenu vomei, with conversion to select the appropriate place of the mei
selbri depending on whether you want a set, mass, or individuals.
TLI masses were covered by loi and lei with the quantifiers on the
latter
covering the two senses of the "two men carrying the log across the
field.
'loi' is still 'hello' The two senses (together or separately) are
given by 'le to' and 'lei to'
and 'tocu' for an unspecified pair
Bob McIvor