[lojban] Re: Projects

[Jorge "Llambías" <jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar>]

Forwarded from reverendzow, as it was meant for the list.

> --- In lojban@yahoogroups.com, Jorge "Llambías" <jjllambias2000@y...>
> wrote:
> > reverendzow:
> > > Additionally, I am finding a need for a schematically defined
> syntax
> > > for Lojban.
> >
> > Could you expand a bit more on what you mean by that?
> 
> Essentially, this is a series of structural definitions like:
> 
> a bridi is one of the following:
> * a sumti, followed by a selbri, followed by 0-4 sumti, depending on
> which selbri is used
> * a sumti, followed by {se|te|ve|xe}, followed by a selbri, followed
> by 0-4 sumti, depending on which selbri is used
> * etc.
> 
> > > In attempting to create such a definition, I often come
> > > across logical constructs which have no Lojban names.  For
> instance,
> > > what shall we call words that possess brivla?  I have come up
> with
> > > ka'eserafsi, although my construction may be flawed, and a word
> based
> > > on fu'ivla may be better.
> >
> > I guess you mean words that possess _rafsi_. Then {selrafsi} or just
> > {se rafsi} will work. These will be all the gismu (which possess at
> > least the four letter rafsi formed by dropping the last vowel) and
> > some cmavo. If you mean words that can be components of lujvo, then
> > this means almost every word, because you can use {zei} to join
> almost
> > any pair of words into a lujvo (exactly which words the exceptions
> are
> > is a matter to be investigated, but they are very few: y, si, sa,
> su,
> > bu?, zo?, zoi?, ba'e?, zei itself?).
> 
> Can you then form a lujvo by doing gismuzeigismu?  Either way, I feel
> I'll need some clarification on the formation of lujvo.
> 
> > >  The words being defined,
> > > however, could be changed, and (if changed properly) with the
> sole
> > > consequence of requiring /piji'i lo'i lojban ve tavla do/ to
> learn
> > > the new vocabulary.
> >
> > This is probably out of the question for Lojban at this stage,
> > but there is a yahoogroups list (engelang) where you could discuss
> > such ideas. The list hasn't been very active lately though.
> 
> That's two negatives so far, but I feel that significant improvement
> would find the community willing to convert.  Again, not that such
> improvement is even possible.
> 
> > > The reason I think this may be a good thing to
> > > do is that I doubt sufficient research has been put into the
> > > worldwide pronuncibility and comprehensibility of the language.
> For
> > > instance, most Japanese have trouble differentiating American
> L/R,
> > > and pronouncing our R.
> >
> > On the other hand, if you only use distinctions that can be easily
> > made and recognized by everybody, you end up with a need for longer
> > words to make up for the small inventory of phonemes. I agree that
> > Lojban's phoneme inventory is not especially good, though it is not
> > especially bad either. (It is almost identical to the Esperanto
> > inventory, with one or two minor differences only: Esperanto
> doesn't
> > have Lojban's "y", and it has ts, tc, dj as single phonemes.)
> 
> It certainly isn't especially bat, but there are problems also with
> x/', and as a smarter-than-average American, I find y both
> disturbing, and creeping into my pronunciations of Lojban.  And as a
> hobby-phoneticist, the idea of using ts, tc, and dj like that just
> torques me.
> 
> > > I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm
> > > only a phoneticist by hobby, and know only scraps of languages.
> I
> > > also think a more optimal fashion of creating the smallest words
> is
> > > possible.  Lastly, I wonder wether any consultation of experts in
> > > computerized voice-recognition has taken place.
> >
> > I don't think so.
> >
> > > Their input on
> > > viable sounds to include in a language could be invaluable.  The
> > > point is:  it is quite likely that the vocabulary needs serious
> > > optimization/reform if widespread adoption of Lojban is to occur.
> >
> > Maybe, but such a re-doing of the words will almost certainly
> > be unacceptable to the existing Lojban community.
> 
> I again disagree on the principle that (hopefully) improvements which
> would lead to a major flourishing of the Lojban community would be
> considered worth the sacrifice.  Or maybe I'm just over-optimistic.
> 
> > mu'o mi'e xorxes
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> 



	
		
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