[lojban] Re: possessives

[robin <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

Mr Ekted wrote:
> Hi all, trying to get back into lojban after taking a long break. I am
> curious about pe, po, po'e. There seems to be some room for idiom in
> their descriptions in the level0 book. Does the word "possession"
> really mean ownership, or is it intended to simply mean association?
> My hair will always be my hair, but if I cut it off and give it to
> you, it is now "also" your hair by possession. How do you specify the
> difference?

I'd say it was simultaneously "loi kerfa po'e mi" and "loi kerfa po do". 
It is inalienably associated with me by virtue of having my DNA, and 
alienably yours by virtue of legal possession. "po'e" implies that there 
is some unchangable quality which links the possessed to the possessor 
(in the broadest possible sense of possess).

> Also:
>
> my country
>
> If you used po'e, does this specifically say "you ARE the country", or
> can it mean a lifelong loyalty/nationalism?

I'd say it implied that you were born in that country.
> my soul
>
> If you use po, does it imply that you feel you can lose your soul, as
> opposed to po'e?

I don't think you could meaningfully say "lo pruxi po mi" unless you 
were some being that could not only lose its soul but swap souls around 
at will (I'm ignoring the question of how, if one accepts the existence 
of souls, there vould be an "I" distinct from my soul). Otherwise it's 
like any other part of you. My hair is still "loi kerfa po'e mi" even if 
I cut it off and sell it to a wig-maker; I assume the same would apply 
to my soul. Even if I sell my soul to the Devil, he would presumably 
refer to it as "lo pruxi po'e la robin."
> Also, ising using pe considered appropriate in all cases when po/po'e
> are more appropriate, without any notions of insult?

"pe" is simply less specific (it's analagous to the all-purpose "nu" for 
states/events). I don't see why it should be insulting, and from the 
point of view of tact, "pe" might even be preferable, since you are 
avoiding the question of possession and alienability (it's certainly the 
one I'd use for "speni").  In most of the cases you describe, I would in 
any case use the shorthand "loi mi kerfa," "lo mi pruxi" etc.

robin.tr

--
"His youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal, says one of the Dalai Lama's 
greatest finds of recent years was super-glue -- second, in fact, only 
to the more recent discovery of super-glue remover."

Robin Turner
IDMYO
Bilkent Universitesi
Ankara 06533
Turkey

www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin