[lojban] Re: John Cowan's view on reification

[Jorge "Llambías" <jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar>]

--- Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> This is actually BPFK business, so the rest of you can ignore it.
>
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2004 at 03:18:27PM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> > 
> > My view on Lojban's view of reification:
> > 
> > Everything that a sumti refers to, not within the scope of a
> > negation, is reified.  That includes abstract le nu/lo nu things,
> > le'e things, lo'e things, and the works.  You may perhaps find an
> > exception to this general principle, but I can probably explain it
> > away.

I adhere to this principle, assuming that by "sumti" we mean the
"sumti-6" of the formal grammar. In addition to sumti-6 we can 
include non-logically connected sumti-6. We cannot however include 
quantified or logically connected sumti because those things do not 
themselves refer (quantifiers and logical connectives are bridi operators, 
even though they look as if they were just modifying a sumti), although
the sumti-6 within them does.

I adhere in fact to a more general principle: "Everything that a 
sumti-6 refers to, whether or not within the scope of a negation, 
is reified." 

I don't think negation affects reference. For example, in
{no le ci cribe cu gleki} there is a reference to the three
bears ({le ci cribe}) even though it is within the scope of
a negation.

> > Ya happy now, rlpowell?
> 
> As long as that means you're comfortable with (in xorlo) the idea
> that {re lo ci broda} is one broda and {re loi ci broda} is six
> broda, and as long as xorxes feels his outstanding questions to you
> have been answered, yep.

{re lo ci broda ...} says that two of three brodas do something.
{lo ci broda} refers to three brodas. {re lo ci broda} does not
refer, it says how many of the three brodas satisfy some predicate.

{re loi ci broda ...} says that two groups of three brodas do
something. {loi ci broda} refers to a group or groups of 
three brodas. {loi ci broda} = {lo gunma be lo ci broda}.
{re loi ci broda} = {re gunma be lo ci broda} does not
refer, it says that there are two groups of three brodas 
that satisfy some predicate.

mu'o mi'e xorxes



	
		
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