[lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}?

[Jorge Llambías <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

On Apr 6, 2005 8:31 AM, opi_lauma <opi_lauma@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have new question. Is it true that {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri
> X1}? 

As long as X1 and X2 don't include any operators with scope
(such as quantifiers, logical connectives, negation) then yes.
If there is scope involved, their order matters.

>For example is {la tam. tavla la meris.} equivalent to {la meris.
> se tavla la tam.} ?

Yes.

> The reason of my doubt is following. I found that {la tam. tavla la
> meris.} should be translated as "Tom talks to Mary", and {la meris. se
> tavla la tam.} should be translated as "Mary listens to Tom."

Maybe "could" rather than "should". "Listen" could also be 
{tirna} or {jundi}. 

But it
> seams to me that these two English translations have different
> meaning. Really, if Tom talk to Mary it does not necessarily mean that
> Mary listen to Tom. Does it mens that corresponding initial lojban
> sentences also have different meaning, or may be English translations
> just not fully represent initial meaning of lojban sentences?

The latter. Translations are always a compromise. Probably
"is talked to by" would in general be a more exact translation 
than "listens" for {se tavla}.

mu'o mi'e xorxes