[lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}?

[John E Clifford <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

--- Opi Lauma <opi_lauma@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Well, from the point of view of Tom, Mary may
> look 
> > beautiful for some
> > purpose, without Mary doing anything. Someone
> may 
> > seem 
> > perfect for
> > something without doing anything in
> particular.
> 
>     >>from the point of view of Tom<<
> 1. Mary and Tom are arguments of {tavla} (not
> {melbi}), it is not said what are arguments of
> {melbi}, i.e. it is not clear for whom it is
> beautiful.
> 
>     >>beautiful for some purpose<<
> 2. {melbi} should be related with {tavla}, if I
> say
> {la tam. melbi tavla la meris.} it means that
> Tom is
> beautiful as speaker, or may be that speech of
> Tom is
> beautiful, but it does not mean that Tom has
> beautiful
> face, for example. 

These are very sensible positions, BUT...
The relation between {melbi} and {tavla} and just
how Tom and Mary fit in are all pretty much up
for grabs.  It is fixed that Tom is talking to
Mary and that beauty comes into it somewhere, but
not where.  It may be that Tom is a beautiful
talker simply be cause he is beautiful (in the
face, e.g.)  and a talker, among countless other
things (as has been noted). As you note, the
arguments of {melbi} are unspecified: they might
be Tom or Mary or something else altogether --
Tom's talking or its subject or .... It would be
nice to have this more precise but, in the
absence of context we cannot.  We can only ask
the speaker to spell it out a bit more.  Tanru
are always shorthand for a longer expression (or
rather can almost always be expanded; they may
not consciously be a collapsed version of
something else)and there is nothing in the tanru
alone (that is without a lot of context) to say
how the expansion should go.  There are a number
of common patterns however -- but no guarantee
that this is not an uncommon one.  The most
likely are that Tom's talking is itself beautiful
in some way (what way is not even hinted at), or
that Tom is beautiful and talking or that  Tom is
talking about beauty.