[lojban] Re: the meter is a unit of length

[John E Clifford <lojban-out@lojban.org>]

--- Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 8/4/05, John E Clifford
> <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > klani [ lai ] quantity
> > > x1 is a quantity
> quantified/measured/enumerated
> > > by x2 (quantifier) on
> > > scale x3 (si'o)
> > 
> > Really?  "quantity" in that sense (a bunch of
> > things)? If so, scratch the remark about
> {klani}
> > above and enroll {ni} as a se klani.  One
> would,
> > however, have expected {klani} to have a
> place
> > for the sort of things involved, if this was
> the
> > real meaning:"The Giants are a quantity of
> > baseball players (coming up- to nine on a
> head
> > count)"
> 
> I would say:
> 
>     la djaiants cu klani li so lo kelci
>     The Giants amount to nine in players.
> 
> but then I favour changing the x3 of klani to
> the more straightforward
> "units", rather than the more abstract "scale".
> If you want to keep
> a scale there, then you can say the same thing
> in a more roundabout
> way:
> 
>    la djaiants cu klani li so lo se gradu be lo
> kelci
>    The Giants amount to nine on a scale whose
> units are players.
> 
> This sidesteps the issue of how to refer to a
> scale by using the units
> instead (lo se gradu be ...). Another way of
> sidestepping it would
> be {lo ckilu be ...}, here using the property
> instead of the scale:
> 
>    la djaiants cu klani li so lo ckilu be lo ka
> xo kau kelci cu cmima ce'u
>    The Giants amount to nine on a scale for
> measuring how many players
>    it has.
> 
> In any case, a simple {la djaiants cu klani li
> so} will probably be understood
> with the "right" x3 in many contexts. 

Of course, this leaves out the scales that are
not numeric (more or less): I remember the old
phallometer for measuring the arousal power of
porn and ranged from "flaccid" to "rock hard,
extra long and straight" or some such terms.  I
suppose those could be assigned numbers, but that
seems less than enlightening.  I also suppose
that as a place on {klani}, x2 is more or less
required to be numeric, since "limp," for
example, is hardly a quantity or a measure of
same.
 
> But how we can describe a scale other than as
> {lo se gradu be...} or´
> {lo ckilu be...}, I don't know.
> 
> > > dukti [ dut ] opposite ; 'contrary'
> > > x1 is polar opposite from/contrary to x2 in
> > > property/on scale x3
> > > (property/si'o)
> > 
> > I wonder which this really is, polar opposite
> or
> > contrary (point or area, or specific v
> > indefinite). "Contrary" makes the best sense.
> 
> lo zunle cu dukti lo pritu
> lo berti cu dukti lo snanu
> lo barda cu dukti lo cmalu
> lo broda cu dukti lo to'e broda

So, "opposite point" then.  "contrary" is just a
mistake.

> 
> > > If ni is the quantitative aspect of a
> property
> > > (which I might
> > > write as {ka se la'u ma kau ...}) then it's
> not
> > > clear how it can
> > > be a number, like se mitre, se klani, te
> merli
> > > or namcu.
> > >
> > Well it is again a reading on a scale (and an
> > amount, at least sometimes)so numbers seem
> > natural for many cases -- or numeroid things
> like
> > "huge."
> > (Suggesting a reading involving {la'u}
> doesn't
> > help a lot, since the rules for that -- and
> the
> > meaning when properly used -- are even less
> clear
> > than those for {ni}, as far as I can find.)
> 
> For me the problem with {ni} is not so much
> unclarity of
> the possible meanings, there are basically
> three that I can
> identify, each pretty clear. The problem is
> that there is no
> consistency in sticking with just one of them,
> even for the
> same person.
> 
Spell out please, I think I have only thought of
the value-on-a-scale sense (forcing the creation
of some rather strange scales).


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