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[lojban] Re: [hobyrne: Alphabet]
Matt Arnold wrote:
Hugh,
Thanks for your contribution!
Thanks for your reply :) it is definitely one of the kindest ones I've
received.
Certainly, if anyone wishes to write Lojban in the Visual Speech
alphabet, nothing is stopping them. It would not really be a change to
the language itself. I myself wish to write Lojban in VS from time to
time when creating webcomics, Lojbanimations, and other artistic
pursuits in which characters live in a Lojban-speaking culture. It's
fun and attractive and cool. This would be a great visual addition to
the worldbuilding of a "Lojban-born" setting.
I'm glad you like VS too, and see it meshing well with Lojban too (at
least sometimes). It means I'm not *completely* crazy and out-of-place
here!
As I've said in another post, though, I'm nudging the crusade from VS to
RPA. I don't see this as a terribly large change in direction,
ideologically anyway, but it is a more precise target, and so may make
the difference to some people.
The question is, should it be made mandatory so that others, by virtue
of knowing Lojban, will be able to read your Lojban when you do so? On
balance, I think not, for several reasons.
Keyboards, email clients, web browsers, IM clients, and IRC chatrooms
are not set up to use the character set.
I have admitted to having little regard for social inertia. ASCII,
however, has so much damn weight behind it, I can't ignore it.
I'm thinking long-term, though. I'm thinking of when ASCII is finally,
blessedly dropped for Unicode (or its successor), and all related
technology follows. What a glorious day that will be!
In order to have someone to communicate to in Lojban, we need people
to learn the language. So it's good to prevent an overwhelming number
of simultaneous barriers to learning. They can always learn Lojban in
the Latin alphabet and graduate to using VS if that practice catches
on.
This is designing Lojban to always be a second language. For the
short-term, this is all that's realizable, but... it's depressing to use
it as an *axiom*.
But I'm willing to roll with your idea of 'graduating'. It is a
short-term bridge to facilitate the long-term goal (the goal of getting
rid of that axiom). And, in being optional from the beginning, it will
live or die on its own merits. It seems a compromise that can work in
short-term and long-term, if both sides are tolerant.
A big way in which auxlangs and loglangs differ from artlangs (such as
Tolkien or Klingon) is that idealism doesn't apply to artlangs. You
just ask the inventor of an artlang a question, and that settles it.
But in auxlangs/loglangs, the only standard against which to measure
success in its creation is reality itself, in which much less can ever
be dogmatically settled. So the participants, starting from a blank
slate, feel like they have a chance to create Perfection. This is
where they start quibbling over details and making mountains out of
molehills-- an endless pursuit of greater and greater perfection. Then
they are unable to speak to each other in their split-off variations
of the language. This ironically flies in the face of the nature and
purpose of language, as a participatory activity.
Hmm. The only measure of success is reality itself. I'm not sure I can
wrap my head around this; the implied meaning is that the only measure
of success is *history*, and that, I disagree with.
If there was *no* pursuit of perfection, there wouldn't even be the
*beginning* of Lojban.
Hm, that probably doesn't answer the point you're trying to make.
Quibbling is inevitable. It is even desirable, so long as discourse
remains civil and reasonable. It is how alternate ideas are tested for
fitness. It's not always seen as a fair test by all the participants.
(For my part, I'll try not to grumble too much.) I enjoy the
intellectual stimulation I'm gaining from this discourse. I understand
the very important distinction between phonetic and phonemic better now
than I did before, I've seen even more writing methods that interest me,
and even language concepts.
Anyway, I'm into having a quibble now and then, it's fun.
Hm, that still probably doesn't answer the point you're trying to make.
I know I'm on a molehill. I am being loud, and vocal, because this
molehill is smack in the middle of the entrance to one of the most
beautiful lands I've known. Many people don't look this way, or take it
for granted that it's a part of the landscape, probably *because* it's
right at the entrance. If I make a mountain out of it, overshadow or
crowd out other issues, tell me; I'll back off. But I *am* standing on
a molehill, and I think it's a crying shame this smear is here, small as
it is, when it doesn't have to be (or, at the very least, could be made
smaller).
Hm, I'm not sure even that's it. I don't want to get into a situation
where I can't speak to others, or others can't speak to me. But I don't
think I'm going in that direction.
I think there is room to move in the direction of Perfection. I think
it only right and proper to point this out, explain where necessary, and
champion the cause. Lojban was a *major* move in the direction of
Perfection, and many people now benefit from it. This move will be less
benefit, but still, it will be benefit, in the long term, and it is
still worthy, IMHO.
Hm. Some, or all, or none of the above may or may not be relavent to
what you wrote (or didn't write).
Anyway. You can't accuse me of not using Lojban as a participatory
activity! :)
Hence my stance toward the language I ultimately chose to learn,
Lojban, has been to embrace it -- warts and all -- because it's better
for my purposes than a language that doesn't even attempt its goals.
Consider that. I encourage you to adopt that attitude and you will be
happier and find more success. Many of us will enjoy using VS with
you, but it will never become the standard.
I love Lojban! Even with its warts! Didn't I say that already? I love
Lojban! I'll shout it from the hilltops: I love Lojban! I'll hire a
skywriter to... well... no. ahem.
:) Your consideration for my happiness is appreciated. But as I said,
I'm having a good time here so far (mostly). I miss university, where I
could participate in intellectual discussions fairly regularly. I
occasionally trawl (not troll! - at least, I hope not!) the Internet for
stimulating conversation. It's good for my brain.
Your consideration for my success is also appreciated. But, as I said,
I'm an idealist, I'd rather be good at what I do than successful.
Thanks for your ideas, input, and concern, Matt.
mi'e .xius.
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