Re: PLI: zoigy. unless .gy. xelfanva lu secau

["Jorge J. Llambias" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

i casnu fa la dn joi mi

>>Your translation was:
>>
>>        lenu sisku na sidju ki'u lenu na'e djuno filo nalterju'o
>>
>>which means something like: "It is not the case that: seeking is helpful
>>because the mystery is unknown."
>
>My translation was:
>
>    do djuno ledu'u lenu sisku jo'u camdji kei na snada
>           ki'u lenu djuno filo nalterju'o
>
>The "kei" scopes the "na" to the same level as the "ki'u".  The failure is
>caused by the not knowing.

But the "na" does have scope over the "ki'u". The scope is:

        na ( le nu sisku cu snada ki'u le nu na'e djuno)
It is not the case that (the seeking succeeds because of not knowing)

To get your meaning with "na" you would need to use "naku" and even
have to reverse the order:

        ki'u le nu na'e djuno le nu sisku naku snada

Otherwise "na" has scope over the whole clause.

>>I think you meant {na} not to have scope
>>over {ki'u}, but it does. I guess you could say something like:
>>
>>      le nu sisku cu na'e sidju ki'u le nu na'e djuno fi lo nalterju'o
>
>>In any case, I would probably say:
>>
>>        i mi klama le banxa va'o le nu do na dunda lo jdini mi
>>        I will go to the bank if you don't give me money
>
>Why not "ki'u"?  You state the conditions under which you go to the bank, but
>not the fact that the conditions are the reason for going.

You may be right. The reason I prefer "va'o" is that I've come to
regard events with "va'o" as potential, while with "ki'u" I still
consider them as actually happening.

>         I will go to the bank because you don't give me money.
>
>>I propose the use of {va'onai} as a general translation for "unless":
>
>I do not believe there is a single mapping for "unless", there are times when
>it need not be causal and your rule is true.  At other times more needs
>to be stated.

I agree about there being no single mapping, that is always the case
in translation. But I'm not sure that causality is the main issue here.
Would you ever use "va'o" for some unconnected event? Is your not giving
me money the condition under which I won't go to the bank, or the reason
for my not going. I believe that to be a reason it has to actually happen,
while to be a condition it may simply be a potential event. But I'm not
certain that "va'o" really implies this potentiality.

co'o mi'e xorxes