Re: ti preti lojban

[John Cowan <cowan@locke.ccil.org>]

Kevin Turner wrote:

> And so it was that I discovered constructed
> languages and lojban, which I have now embarked on learning.  I've been
> reading the first lesson of the draft textbook and parts of the
> reference grammar, and have come up with some questions.\

Welcome.  BTW, your use of "ti" in the subject line is problematic
(a natural error), since "ti" refers only to things that can be
pointed at.  Also, names need the article "la".
 
> Is there any constistancy of sumti order for gismu?  The first place is
> seems very regular (as the-thing-which-is-to-be-related), but beyond
> that...  For example tavla and dunda.  Tavla has x2 being the recipient
> of the talking while x3 is the thing which is being talked about, while
> dunda has x3 being the recipient of the giving while x2 is the thing
> which is given.

Not much pattern to it, but some of what there is is explained in
Section 12.16 of the reference grammar
(http://www.lojban.org/files/reference-grammar/chap12.html#s16).

> Also, it seems to be common to for gismu definitions to have a "made of
> material" sumti tacked on at the end, but this is not universal.  I can
> specify the material for a bottle by supplying the third sumti to botpi,
> but it seems to me such a sumti would be frequently ellipsed, thus
> making it difficult to remeber if it was defined.

Lojbab probably knows what the rationale was for this.

> In contrast, another method is required to say "Adobe, the car that's
> made out of clay," as karce has no such material-sumti place defined.
> So I imagine there is a selbri for "x1 is constructed of material x2"...
> But I am curious, what was the rationale for occasionally defining these
> "made of" placements?

That was a vexed problem (x1 is made of x2) but I forget the resolution.

> mi klama le te le stedu cpana ku tavla ku

"Te" has to be tightly bound to its corresponding brivla.
There are several ways to say what you are trying for, but you
probably don't have the grammar for them yet: probably the
simplest is "le tavla be fi le stedu cpana", where "be fi" means
in effect "Put this in the 3rd place of the description selbri
without terminating the description."


> mi cikrie
>  - keven.
> (or is it geven.?)

Your choice.

-- 
John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan		cowan@ccil.org
	You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
	You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
		Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)