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`even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi)
--- In lojban@egroups.com, Invent Yourself <xod@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Ivan A Derzhanski wrote:
>
> > Jorge Llambias wrote:
> > > "Even" does point to a contrast, but it is not surprise. You
> > > can say things like "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising
> > > that even his horse brings fear to his enemies".
> > >
> > > It is as if you are pointing to a long string of things that
> > > bring fear to his enemies: his person, and also his presence,
> > > and also his strength, and also his weapons, and finally even
> > > his horse. By saying "even his horse" you are including all
> > > the other things that are more likely than his horse to bring
> > > fear to his enemies.
> Very interesting observation, Ivan!
>
> I see the idea of "even" bearing closer to surprise than to
contrast. It
> denotes a truth which is not obvious. It is obvious that the
presence of
> a fearsome man is fearsome. It's not obvious that his horse would be
> fearsome too.
>
> As for the sentence "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising
that even
> his horse brings fear to his enemies", it is cute but doesn't hide
the
> fact that if you hadn't told us that his horse is fearsome we would
not
> have 'normally' inferred it from the fact that he is fearsome. Of
course,
> there is are kilometers of wiggle room in my use of 'normal'. Or:
we may
> be able to infer that his horse is fearsome if we know that he's
very
> fearsome, but we didn't know he was THAT fearsome and there lies the
> surprise carried by the 'even'.
Indeed, interesting Ivan's different examples for "even": I
picked
out the Chinese one for analyzing it:
'shen4chih4' BIG5 ¬Æ¦Ü - 'shen' is given as "What? Who?
Any. Very; extremely.
More important than" and the compound as "even to; even
as far as
to; at the worst; culminating in" (Mathews).
The character shen ¬Æ etymologically derives from 'kan1' ¥Ì
(sweetness of something
'i1' ¤@ held in the mouth 'kou3' ¤f; by extension,
satisfaction, *affection*)
and 'p'i3' ¤Ç (one half of the devisable even number 'four',
i.e. that which,
joined with its like, forms a *pair*, a match). 'shen' ®
"the *affection*
for being that makes the pair (sexual) (...) This affection being
very great,
says the Glose, hence the extended meaning, *superlative, very,
extremely, excessive*
(Dr. Wieger, S.J.).
So, Jorges opinion to me seems pretty convincing, since
'shen4chih4' literally
infact means "reaching the extreme(s)"! Yet, the extremes
/terai/,
/ji'acai/(?) are part of the 'unusual', 'unexpected' - *astounding*
/.ue/, don't
they?
.aulun. ¶øÀs
http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de";
http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/SPUREN.RXML";>Traces of Butterflies' Dreams
- ½º¹Ú²ª "Tieh Meng Hen"
http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/MYPOEMS.RXML";>My Poetry
A.W. Tueting Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de ¼w°ê¼}¥§¶Â
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