RE: [lojban] pe BAI <sumti> on tense markers

["Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@lojban.org>]

At 09:33 PM 8/29/01 +0100, And Rosta wrote:
> Xod:
> [...]
> > > > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> > > > > a. ko'e zbasu le dinju lo staku be seba'i lo rokci
> > > > > (The brick was made of something else instead of stone, maybe.)
> > > > > b. ko'e zbasu le dinju lo staku pe seba'i lo rokci
> > > > > (The tower was made of brick instead of of stone.
> >
> > I don't see any difference!
> >
> > le dinju be fi'e mi
> > The building with creator = me
> >
> > le dinju pe fi'e mi
> > The building that has creator = me
> >
> > Is this wrong? Somebody said pe works like be in this case. I think they
> > quoted the book but I am too lazy to check.
>
> le se dinju pe fi'e mi = the building-purpose that has creator = me
> le se dinju be fi'e mi = that whose relationship with the building it is
>                          the purpose of involves creator me
> le se dinju be zo'e pe fi'e mi = the purpose of the building whose creator
>                                  is me
>
> Or?

In the "be fi'e mi" version, the fi'e mi is being attached to the 
subordinate predicate  zo'e dinju le se dinju fi'e mi, because "be" is used 
to attach sumti to that hidden subordinate predicate.  This might therefore 
be used for the purpose of the architect/builder in building the building.

With "pe fi'e mi" we are not referring to the subordinate predicate dinju, 
but instead conjuring up some unspecified predicate about le se dinju which 
involves me as an inventor/creator (not necessarily of le dinju), and which 
because of pe vs ne serves to restrict le se dinju.  This might be used 
either for the meaning described for the be version, or the 
building-purpose of a building associated with mi as builder of Lojban 
(even though I had little to do with the building itself.  In many ways the 
pe usage is more tied to the bridi that le se dinju is used in, serving to 
indicate something relevant about le se dinju in the context of that main 
bridi.  Some members of BAI can float freely in a bridi because they don't 
(ce'u-like) associate with one particular sumti of that bridi, but rather 
with the bridi as a whole.  Others have to associate with a particular 
sumti, such as
mi ne semau la djan cu melbi

lojbab


--
lojbab                                             lojbab@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
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Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:                 http://www.lojban.org