RE: [lojban] observatives (was RE: a construal of lo'e & le'e

["Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@lojban.org>]

At 04:25 PM 10/29/01 +0000, And Rosta wrote:
> Lojbab:
> #Of course the bottom line is that in TLI Loglan there was an explicit
> #debate between interpreting a bare predicate as a command or an observative
> #("Fire!" said to soldiers of an execution squad, vs. on seeing smoke and
> #flame).  JCB chose one way; we reversed that decision.
>
> I don't see why you didn't go for a third option, that of having no special
> rules(or "conventions") for bare predicates in main bridi.

Anything JCB had made a ruling on, we felt compelled to either replicate 
his ruling or specify an alternative.  In the case of bare predicates, 
these were the two alternatives that had been argued for years.

> #Other ways of showing the observative were not considered, except to
> #reject the lone  sumti version, which seemed horribly flawed.
>
> What are the horrible flaws?

Basically, I think it comes down to the same thing that caused by strong 
opinion on ka and ce'u.  Predicates are relations between multiple sumti, 
and when we observe a predicate, we are observing the relationship and not 
the x1 of the relationship.  There is also much more manipulation needed to 
turn some predicates in sumti that make clear what is being observed.  For 
example, using the "fire" case, it is not clear whether we observe lo jelca 
(a fire), or lo se jelca (something burning).  If we say simply jelca we 
convey with immediacy that the relationship is being observed.

By contrast, with an imperative, we always have in mind someone (and 
usually someone in particular) being commanded to make the predicate true, 
so commands seem natural to invoke a sumti indicating what role the 
commandee is supposed to play in making the relationship true.

lojbab
--
lojbab                                             lojbab@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
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