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Re: [lojban] The end of the wiki
At 06:39 PM 11/28/01 +0000, And Rosta wrote:
>>> <thinkit8@lycos.com> 11/27/01 12:40pm >>>
#Because I'm interested in conlangs in general, and the lojban grammar
#in particular. And Rosta...aren't you the same in that way?
Yes, but I joined the community in a kinder gentler era when my
bolshiness was treated most avuncularly by Lojbab, and now I'm part of
the furniture.
Lojbab has not said anything that should be taken as other-than-avuncular
to tinkit (so far). But then, Lojbab did not always feel as avuncular
about And's bolshiness as he may have acted.
One difference, of course, is that when And was most offensive that
language was not yet baselined. LLG officially has NO interest in any
variants of Lojban, and our limited tolerance for differences is extended
towards the remnant of TLI in the interest of rapprochement behind Lojban
as the surviving version of Loglan. This will be challenging enough,
without dealing with "reform" movements of the sort that have split
language communities in the past.
I have to offer to tinkit that I myself had my own "reform the world"
proposal, the base-12 time system that was in the original textbook draft,
shot down by the community several years ago. While Lojban is a radically
different language from other conlangs, we have taken a fundamentally
conservative approach to conlang design, sticking to JCBs original premises
as much as possible, and changing things only as needed to make Lojban work
as a living language. The Sapir-Whorf test is already designed into the
grammar of the language; further radical changes from natlangs are not
needed and indeed could be harmful.
I don't think anybody mentioned, btw, that you do post to the list and
the wiki *in Lojban*, which by usual criteria ought to place you on the
side of the angels.
So long as he continues to do so, he is a Lojbanist. However, I had the
impression that he was planning on getting those awful gismu out of his
head, which means that we should not expect further Lojban postings.
The wiki is not an official LLG site and is Jay's effort, so Jay has the
right to decide the sorts of things he wants to see on that site. (The
fact that I agree 100% with Jay's attitude toward the language as expressed
on his page makes supporting his policy easy).
At 06:48 PM 11/28/01 +0000, And Rosta wrote:
>>> Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> 11/27/01 07:52pm >>>
#On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 03:57:10PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
#> Steve Belknap was similarly monomaniacal about fuzzy logic and (quite
#> rightly) never got abused.
#
#I suspect he didn't post something titled "lojban uses fuzzy logic by
#default!!".
#
#I also suspect he didn't post something entitled "give me my brain cells
#back!" bitch about how stupid the language was, and then continue
#posting anyways. Mostly bitching about how stupid lojban is.
Steve started posting on his issues pre-baseline, though too late to make
any significant changes. He also spent a long while supporting the
language before he introduced his personal topic of interest, and he
continues to support the language (Steve bought ten copies of the book for
distribution to libraries), even though he does not post.
I also never really saw Steve as posing any sort of radical change. He was
merely asking how we would express various fuzzy logic concepts in Lojban
and trying to determine to what extent the language supported fuzzy
logic. He apparently was satisfied by the conclusion, given his book purchase.
Steve's real challenge was over the long term management of the baseline,
as to whether and how we would discuss changes that might prove needed
while during the baseline period.
Well maybe tinkit has the distinction of combining in a single person at once
several much abhorred vices. But no single vice is unique to him. Just as
Steve showed a similar monomania, so I've posted innumerable messages
criticizing Lojban.
And drawn your share of fire for it. But I think you have also made
considerable effort to build bridges to key Lojbanists, and made clear when
the chips are down that you support the language even when you disagree
with some elements of the design. tinkit has said just the opposite, that
his disagreement has led him to abandon the language.
It remains unclear whether he has useful contributions to make if he ceases
to post in Lojban, and has nothing constructive to say about the language
or the community. If he wants to go off and invent his own variant, he
would be well advised to look at the historical record of Jim Carter's
efforts, which did not offend LLG (though they did offend JCB), and Rex
May's efforts. In both cases they set up their own site, and called the
language something different and have been low key about their criticism of
the mainstream effort, letting their own language efforts speak for
themselves. Negative criticism does not help anyone in the conlang world -
it only makes enemies.
Plus, as I just pointed out in my last message, tinkit
mitigates his vices by the Virtue of having quite a good lojban-to-english
ratio in his postings. He took the trouble to learn the language enough to use
it a bit, which surely means he can't squarely be placed in the bad guy camp.
For that matter, if he wants to assume a hexidecimal base in his Lojban
writing, he can. But he should not be surprised when his numerical
statements are not understood as he intends.
But it is always wise to respect your audience in the community. If no one
wants to hear more about his ideas, then to continue to promote them merely
arouses enmity and makes sure that his ideas will never get a hearing. He
would be better off making a personal web page advocating his ideas
(probably mixed with other stuff that is less controversial) and letting
people link to his pages via the webring or in free links. Perhaps Jay
would even allow such a link on tinkit's page in the wiki. Arnt has done
well in posting some of his personal opinions mixed with good content on
his Lojban pages, and this serves as a constructive model.
lojbab
--
lojbab lojbab@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org