Mr. Powell and I got in a discussion tonight about .i'a and we'd like the opinions of the list on the subject: <rlpowell> mi jundi <bancus> i mi go'i <rlpowell> coi bancus. <rlpowell> do gasnu ma <bancus> le nu tirna la pimzlyr. pe le rusko bangu <rlpowell> je'e .i xu do se bangu le rusko <bancus> na mutce go'i <bancus> cilre <rlpowell> .io <bancus> .u'i <bancus> selterpa <bancus> mi jinvi le du'u la pimzlyr. pe la lojban. zdile cinri <rlpowell> .i'a <bancus> "Now say, "What would you like to eat?". ... ... "do djica lenu citka ma" ... " <bancus> .ianairu'e .i'apei <rlpowell> mi zmadu nelci lu ma poi cidja cu do se djica li'u tezu'e le nu fanva zoi gy. What would you like to eat? gy. <bancus> can you put do there? <bancus> you also need a tu'a <bancus> djica demands an abstraction <rlpowell> Yeah, I guess it does. <rlpowell> And no, you can't put do there. <rlpowell> ta'o .i'asai <rlpowell> .e'u lu do citka ma .au li'u .a lu do citka djica tu'a ma li'u <bancus> .ieru'e <rlpowell> mu'i ma do na nelci lu do djica lenu citka ma li'iu <bancus> mi na go'i <bancus> .iku'i mi mutce nelci lu do djica lenu citka ma li'u <bancus> er <bancus> mi nelci lu do djica lenu citka ma li'u <bancus> mi pu stidi le se go'i <rlpowell> OK, I don't understand you original quote then. <rlpowell> <bancus> "Now say, "What would you like to eat?". ... ... "do djica lenu citka ma" ... " <rlpowell> <bancus> .ianairu'e .i'apei <rlpowell> What were you disbelieving? <bancus> your acceptance <bancus> it seemed to indicate that you were planning an doing it yourself <rlpowell> You thought I wouldn't like it? <bancus> as acceptance is the opposite of blame <rlpowell> OK, I'm *very* confused now. <rlpowell> Oh, you were responding to my lojban above, not your own quote. <rlpowell> Got it. <bancus> yeah <rlpowell> I was neutrally accepting your opinion, because I have to basis to form my own. <rlpowell> je'e might have been better. <bancus> yeah <bancus> or maybe .ie <rlpowell> So what was the quote for then? 8) <bancus> it was an example of a pimsleur course for lojban <bancus> I think the accept of .i'a is more of an "I accept the blame" or a "My bad" <bancus> as .i'anai is blaming someone else <rlpowell> Oh, pimsleur is a language course. I didn't know that. 8) <bancus> heh <bancus> yeah <rlpowell> No, .i'a is acceptance of another's actions. <rlpowell> i.e. the opposite of blaming someone. <rlpowell> My bad is .u'u <bancus> http://www.simonsays.com/subs/index.cfm?areaid=128 * bancus blinks <rlpowell> Cool. <bancus> when you blame someone else, you aren't saying that the blame for those actions lie with them? <bancus> acceptance is not approval <bancus> .u'u is beyond just my bad, it also indicates that you feel sorry about it <rlpowell> Remember, attitudinals are always from the POV of the speaker. <bancus> I am aware. <rlpowell> I don't see how the opposite of blaming someone else can be blaming oneself. <bancus> But I fail to see how that applies in this situation. <rlpowell> That's a POV change, not an opposite emotion. <bancus> if you aren't blaming someone else who are you blaming? <bancus> It's not a POV change. <bancus> It's still one person laying blame. <rlpowell> Wow. OK. That so doesn't work for me at all, but I see your point. <bancus> With themself or someone else, it's one person's idea of who the blame belongs to. <bancus> blaming someone else and blaming yourself are opposites <bancus> and not blaming anyone at all is the neutral point <bancus> (or maybe I'm just reading more into it than there is) <rlpowell> See, to me, blaming someone for their actions and accepting their actions are opposites. <rlpowell> Perhaps we should ask the list. <rlpowell> I see accepting blame as something very different. <bancus> Now, as for ,i'a as opposed to ,u'u. You can accept blame without feeling sorry for what you've done. <rlpowell> But it sounds like you're using a less loaded version of blame. <bancus> You can say, "Yeah, that was my bad." <rlpowell> True. <bancus> But not feel repentant. <bancus> Yeah, we should probably put this to the list. <rlpowell> But there's a difference between acceptance of someone's actions and approval; how do you do that now? <bancus> .i'e <rlpowell> I would use .i'anaise'i, BTW, for what you're saying. <rlpowell> No, that's approval. <rlpowell> How do I say that I accept what you've done? * bancus blinks. <rlpowell> acceptance != approval. <bancus> I know. <rlpowell> 'k. <bancus> But you asked about approval. <bancus> or maybe I just misinterpreted <rlpowell> No, I asked about how to make the distinction under your scheme. <rlpowell> Or at least, that's what I tried to do. 8) <rlpowell> I appear to have failed, however. <bancus> well, what is acceptance? acknowledging that they've done something? <rlpowell> Actually, I guess it would be .i'ecu'i <rlpowell> Hmmm. <rlpowell> That makes your scheme more easily expressive, at least in some sense. Any thoughts on this? Looking at the cf, I think robin may have been right, but I think that the way I saw it makes more sense. (As usual, heh.) -- Theodore Reed (rizen/bancus) -==- http://www.surreality.us/ ~OpenPGP Signed/Encrypted Mail Preferred; Finger me for my public key!~ "Without deviation, progress itself is impossible." -- Frank Zappa
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