[lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel

[John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>]

LoCCan3 is the shadowy third version of "the logical language" (the CC  means "two consonants to be named later").  It exists, if at all, as a list of "corrections" to "mistakes" in the first two verisons (the list for Loglan, and probably Lojban,  are out of date).  Feel free to add your own.  
The clump problem has been  noted since at least 1960 on intelligibility grounds (which probably embraces learnabilty as well). Your idea wouldn't help much except to guarantee that all the possible similarities got in (with differentiation only in the second syllable, if at all).  
The inconsistent assignment of similar relations to different places -- and indeed, any rationale for what relations go where -- goes back to the original prospectus for Loglan, where JCB proposed a frequency test.  Which was, of course, never actually carried out, since it is often hard to see what would count as evidence and where to get it.



----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2009 10:29:02 AM
Subject: [lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> OK, I'll put this in the file for LoCCan3.  It will pretty much kill the
> 'easy to learn' 'feature' of the present system, but -- absent a test -- no
> one seems to have believed that anyhow.  I think this is the first
> suggestion about phonolgy -- and immediately suggests the need to revise the
> lujvo rules; any suggestions?
>

  I'm sure I haven't a clue what "LoCCan3" is, and I have REALLY no
desire to throw away all the aging brain cells I've already invested
in learning lojban, but one of the phonological problems I've always
had learning lojban is the of all the theoretical vastness of the
gismu space, there is severe "clumping" in some areas, and other areas
are completely unused.  For example, there is ganra/grana/garna/gerna,
xrani/xanri, cernba/cinba, tsina/tsani/tinsa, tinsa/rinsa/risna,
racli/ralci, etc. etc. but not a single gismu with a pattern of *f*j*
*p*v* *v*v* *x*v* *z*x* or *z*z*, nor any gismu using any of more than
470  theoretically possible consonantal triples (in ANY order) such as
{d,f,z} {d,s,z} {d,p,t}, {l,l,m}, {s,t,v}   I know that this is driven
by the gismu derivation paradigm, but I think any "reimagining" of
lojban should give reasonable weight to making the phonologic
separation between any two gismu as far apart as possible. This will
help in keeping the two words separate in one's mind.

   (The other problem I've had, in learning the deep gismu list, is
the inconsistency.   For example while some things have
source/location, some have composition (and I can see that, and don't
necessarily have a problem with that), and some have both source and
composition, those latter all have source first, then composition,
EXCEPT rokci.  While most things that have a to and from argument have
it in the order "to" and "from", there are a few exceptions (ex. rinci
and sputu).  While most body parts that have three places have the
body in x3, some don't, such as nazbi (possibly forgiveable, as the
subpart is there), kerfa,  rango (but compare cigla).  Some
measurements have subunits before the "by standard" piece, some after,
etc.  I know this has all been discussed elsewhere.)

                  --gejyspa


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