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[lojban] Translation help required ...
From: C.D.Wright@solipsys.compulink.co.uk
coi rodo
Forgive me for posting in English. Before trying to post in
lojban I've been trying to understand some of the messsages
posted by others to learn from their mistakes, and thereby
avoid having people send the same corrections over and over
again.
In attempting to understand the recent message from Minots,
however, I've been having more trouble than with most. My
suspicion is that he is trying to express some complex ideas
and may be getting some of the grammar wrong in the attempt,
although I can hardly criticise when I don't even try! (yet!)
I've been using
2;5;33moi ke lojbo genturfa'i
to generate a parse, and then looking things up in somewhat
old versions of gismu and cmavo lists.
Here's the original:
============================================================
> Date sent: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:15:12 -0600
> From: Minots <minots@MCI2000.COM>
> Subject: talsa
> Originally to: jbomriste <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
>
> coi rodo
>
> mi fanva le'i cizra smuni jufra
> .i le pa jufra cu dukse nandu mi
> .i mi talsa rodo le nu do ka'e fanva zo'e
> tu'e zoi How many of you is there? tu'u
> .i le nu zo do cu pa sezvi gi'e le sezvi cu cumki
> na'e pa xadni ja tarmi kei cu smuni
> .i ti'e la lojban na cu jitri'u le sidbo cusku
> .i ganai je'u gi ko cusku le sidbo ta'i
> le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei
>
> co'o be'i la djan. maynat.
============================================================
I would welcome criticisms of my attempts at analysing that
post. I'll take it one "sentence" at a time.
==========
coi rodo - Greetings all.
==========
Sentence: mi fanva le'i cizra smuni jufra
Parse : (mi {fanva <le'i [(cizra smuni) jufra]>})
mi me
fanva translate
le'i the set described
cizra strange
smuni meaning
jufra sentence
Translation:
I am translating some odd sentences.
==========
Sentence: le pa jufra cu dukse nandu mi
Parse : ({le <pa jufra>} cu {<dukse nandu> mi})
le the described
pa 1
jufra sentence
cu selbri separator
dukse excess
nandu difficult
mi me
I don't understand what the "1" is doing here. Should
it be "pamoi = first"? How does this break down?
Does this translate as
"The first sentence is excessively difficult for me"
?
==========
Sentence: mi talsa rodo le nu do ka'e fanva zo'e
tu'e zoi How many of you is there? tu'u
I've excised the "tu'e ... tu'u" text scope here to
get the following parse:
Parse :
(mi {talsa <[ro do] [le (nu {do <[ka'e fanva] zo'e>})]>})
mi me
talsa challenge
ro each
do you
le the described
nu event abstract
do you
ka'e innately capable of
fanva translate
zo'e unspecif it
I'm guessing that this comes out as
" I challenge you all in property of the event that
you are inately capabale of translating it. "
I'm not sure what the zo'e is doing there. Shouldn't it
simply be the text, since that's the x2 of fanva?
==========
Sentence: le nu zo do cu pa sezvi gi'e le sezvi cu cumki
na'e pa xadni ja tarmi kei cu smuni
I can't get the parser to accept this at all. Here is a
simple gloss, with lots of associated questions.
le nu
zo do ; "do" as a word
cu
pa sezvi ; What does the "pa" mean here? "Me alone"?
gi'e ; and
le sezvi ; "the self" ??
cu
cumki ; maybe
na'e ; scalar contrary - what is the scale or set?
pa ; What does this "1" mean?
xadni ja tarmi ; body or shape
kei
cu
smuni ; ... is the meaning.
Also, there seems to be a mis-spelling in the original, since
my lists have ...
{sevzi}{sez}{se'i} - self
I long for the day when I make no spelling mistakes.
==========
Sentence: ti'e la lojban na cu jitri'u le sidbo cusku
I think the "na cu" should be "cu na", giving
Parse : (ti'e {<la lojban> cu <[na jitri'u] [le (sidbo cusku)]>})
ti'e I hear
la that named
lojban ?
cu selbri separator
na bridi negator
jitri'u +limit+restrain
le the described
sidbo idea
cusku express
Translation: I've heard that lojban puts no limits on
the expression of ideas.
( Personal note: I don't believe that this was the original
intention. I believe the original intention
was to create something *different* about
the language, and to make it as expressive.
)
==========
Sentence: ganai je'u gi ko cusku le sidbo ta'i
le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei
The parser refuses this, although I can get it to work if
I leave out the initial logical connectives ...
Parse : (ko {cusku <[le sidbo]
[ta'i (le {nu <[le prenu] cu [cusku (le sidbo)]>
kei})]>}
)
ko imperative
cusku express
le the described
sidbo idea
ta'i by method
le the described
nu event abstract
le the described
prenu person
cu selbri separator
cusku express
le the described
sidbo idea
kei end abstraction
The initial part glosses as ...
ganai fore only if
je'u truth
gi connective medial
So, I get completely lost in this one and would appreciate some
help. The best I get is ...
" This is only true if
You(imperative) express the idea by method A,
where method A is the event of a person
expressing the idea. "
??? What does that mean?
==========
co'o la kolin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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